Bad Udders

Duncraggan · Jul 6, 2013

I don't select for udders in my herd, but, the cows cull themselves.

The cow pictured below has never been milked out after calving. I don't believe in it,and therefore haven't done it since an old-timer told me he believes it makes them produce even more milk! Once the calf has suckled for the first two days it gets put out with the rest of the recent calvers.

She has produced an above average calf every year since 2007 and that is why she is still around. That said, all her progeny have been sold so as not to breed the problem into the herd.

She probably won't make the cut this year as the rest of the group is doing very well and her current calf has a 100-day index of 89. My cut-off at weaning, for bull calves, is at an index of 95.

BTDT · Jul 7, 2013

Do you sell her progeny to slaughter? Or does that trait get passed to other herds because you sold her calves as breeding animals?
If the animal isn't good enough for your herd, why is it good enough for another herd? Especially a youth project/herd?

Duncraggan · Jul 7, 2013

Considering I have pointed out this highly heritable trait on an international forum, you surely don't think I would sell on the progeny to anyone for breeding purposes, let alone some unsuspecting youth member, do you?

I calve about 60 stud cows a year, from that I retain 12-15 of the best bull calves at weaning, to keep a reasonable contemporary group, and end up putting about 6-10 2-year old bulls on auction in September of every year, usually closer to six. In 2009 I only put two on sale as I felt that the others would not have been of an acceptable standard to be used in my own herd!

My herd is performance recorded, from birth to 540-day weights.

All culled animals are sold to slaughter, male and female.

The only time I have ever sold females for breeding purposes is when I had a total herd dispersal in early 2007, a partnership dissolution and farm sale! I appointed two unrelated parties, unknown to each other, or anybody else, to buy the animals I wanted, regardless of cost.

The animal on the picture, as a PTIC heifer, and her dam, also PTIC, were on my list of animals to buy. They happened to be the worst buys I made!

The dam's calf died within 24 hrs of being born, reason unknown, and she was therefore sold, and the cow on the picture speaks for herself! The family is therefore extinct in my herd!

Okotoks · Jul 7, 2013

Duncraggan said:
Considering I have pointed out this highly heritable trait on an international forum, you surely don't think I would sell on the progeny to anyone for breeding purposes, let alone some unsuspecting youth member, do you?

I calve about 60 stud cows a year, from that I retain 12-15 of the best bull calves at weaning, to keep a reasonable contemporary group, and end up putting about 6-10 2-year old bulls on auction in September of every year, usually closer to six. In 2009 I only put two on sale as I felt that the others would not have been of an acceptable standard to be used in my own herd!

My herd is performance recorded, from birth to 540-day weights.

All culled animals are sold to slaughter, male and female.

The only time I have ever sold females for breeding purposes is when I had a total herd dispersal in early 2007, a partnership dissolution and farm sale! I appointed two unrelated parties, unknown to each other, or anybody else, to buy the animals I wanted, regardless of cost.

The animal on the picture, as a PTIC heifer, and her dam, also PTIC, were on my list of animals to buy. They happened to be the worst buys I made!

The dam's calf died within 24 hrs of being born, reason unknown, and she was therefore sold, and the cow on the picture speaks for herself! The family is therefore extinct in my herd!

I'm glad she is leaving your herd. I realize she is not contributing to your herd but it really isn't good advertising for your herd or the breed when people see an udder like that. (it's a really really bad udder) Good looking cow if you take away the udder but personally bad udders make me cringe. Cecil Staples used to say if you have to feed and work with them you had better at least enjoy looking at them, and there would be no enjoyment there for me. Every situation is different and I don't know how easy it is to cull a cow and find a replacement in your area.

Duncraggan · Jul 7, 2013

Thanks for the comments Okotoks, I feel it is good to show the 'skeletons in the closet' as well!

It is no use, in my opinion, only posting pictures of your best cattle, every herd has a lemon or two and this is mine. As long as you are not marketing them for breeding, you should be OK.

Very valid comment you make about herd advertising, on my open day for the bull sale I always point out the dams of the bulls on sale during the herd tour. I also don't 'hide' any cattle, the visitors see the herd, including commercial cows, warts and all!

Funny how bad points seem to have a neon coloured arrow pointing towards them!

BTDT · Jul 7, 2013

Duncraggan - I am pleased you have a similar theory on selling "unacceptable traits". If they are not good enough for my herd, they should not be acceptable for another's herd.

If I hear someone say they have no "skeletons" then I assume they are lying. If I visit a herd and see no "skeletons", then I assume they are so horrible I need to leave immediately! On the flip side, I have visited places where dead animals are laying around and fences are in obvious disrepair.

Okotoks · Jul 8, 2013

BTDT said:
Duncraggan - I am pleased you have a similar theory on selling "unacceptable traits". If they are not good enough for my herd, they should not be acceptable for another's herd.

If I hear someone say they have no "skeletons" then I assume they are lying. If I visit a herd and see no "skeletons", then I assume they are so horrible I need to leave immediately! On the flip side, I have visited places where dead animals are laying around and fences are in obvious disrepair.

Culling is about getting rid of animals with undesirable traits. If that is considered "hiding skeletons" I do that all the time. ??? I do however try to drag visitors to all our badly fenced fields so that they can see the entire herd. As soon as you cull the cow with the poorest feet or the poorest udder a new cow inherits that position in the herd. It seems to me the object is to make sure the poorest cow in a herd is still an acceptable beast.

BTDT · Jul 8, 2013

Culling is not hiding skeletons. Selling problems to unsuspecting buyers is.
And I agree that the poorest critter should still be acceptable.
We agree! We agree! (clapping)

justintime · Jul 8, 2013

BTDT said:
Culling is not hiding skeletons. Selling problems to unsuspecting buyers is.
And I agree that the poorest critter should still be acceptable.
We agree! We agree! (clapping)

I agree as well! Oftentimes a cow that is very acceptable as a younger female can start to slip towards the unacceptable category as she gets older. I have a cow right now that falls into this category. She has been an outstanding producer and donor cow, however her udder suspension is failing her as an older cow( she is now 13). Her calves have no problems starting to nurse... yet, but I suspect some day it will become a problem.
It is also much easier to cull when you have a herd developed rather than when still building your numbers. I find that I now cull harder than I used to, simply because I have several young heifers that can take their place if there is any issues.
Culling a favorite cow is never pleasant at the time it is done, but I find the pain is short lived.

frostback · Jul 8, 2013

So is there a magic number that is too soon for a udder to go? I Mean like 6 or 7 or up. I realize 3 or 4 would be way too soon. The average age of a cow to go to town is what 8? Not necessarily just because of her udder but being open or other problems.

RyanChandler · Jul 8, 2013

A 'good cows' teeth will wear out before ANYTHING else.

frostback · Jul 8, 2013

Does that happen at different rates in different parts of the country?
What age is that acceptable?

RyanChandler · Jul 8, 2013

frostback said:
Does that happen at different rates in different parts of the country?

Absolutely.

Okotoks · Jul 8, 2013

Certain areas will wear a cows teeth faster than others. Harder short grass with sandy soil will probably be harder on teeth than areas with lush growth. Cows might be lucky to make it to 7 or 8 in some conditions where in others they might have got to 9, 10 or 11.
One thing I have noticed is that some cows can have good attachment at 7, 8 or 9 but their udders get much larger and the attachment can start going after that. Of course by this time they have outlasted the average cow and made a significant contribution to the genetic pool. Cows that have good shaped and sized teats when young usually never have a problem later in life, I don't find good teats change as much as udder attachment.
I like to see the udders on the dams of the bulls I purchase. I have seen photos and videos of the dam of one of our junior sires and the other two I saw the dams in the flesh. Their dams are 4, 7 and 8 respectively but have good functional udders at present.

Duncraggan · Jul 8, 2013

-XBAR- said:
A 'good cows' teeth will wear out before ANYTHING else.

(clapping)

Okotoks · Jul 9, 2013

Pretty amazing what selection for a type can accomplish. These dairy shorthorns have had other milking breeds introduced but the foundation stock had the same bloodlines as beef shorthorns!

Milking Shorthorn Four-Year-Old Cow

RyanChandler · Jul 9, 2013

What are the foundation lines of beef shorthorns? Did the beef and dairy types not evolve from the dual purpose cattle?

Okotoks · Jul 9, 2013

-XBAR- said:
What are the foundation lines of beef shorthorns? Did the beef and dairy types not evolve from the dual purpose cattle?

Originally the milking shorthorns were referred to as Dual Purpose. So the Bates and related lines were dual purpose. The Dual Purpose cattle breeders milked the cows and maintained milk records but they were pure shorthorn and registered in the same herdbook. Some scotch bulls were actually used in some Dual herds. The name was changed to Milking when this type split from the American Shorthorn Association and formed the American Milking Shorthorn Association. In Canada they retained the name until much later when they also formed their own herdbook and changed their name to Milking Shorthorns about 15 years ago. Since the Dual Purpose stayed in our herdbook some of those bloodlines ended up being used in the American Beef book, bulls like Melbros Stronghold and Canadian Image. The beef lines were developed from the same genetics and both types traced to the Colling herds. Basically the difference was generations of selection for different traits. Don't forget most people in the 1700-1800's only had a few cows and most were milked and used for beef and sometimes draft. The Shorthorns were popular for their ability to milk and fatten and were a "dual purpose animal" for lots of small farmers.

heatherleblanc · Jul 9, 2013

I as well do not want to point fingers, and this is JUST MY OPINION.. People breeding specifically for show heifers or steerss, utter quality isn't that high on the list of priorities. I think this happens a little more often in the United States because at the purebreds shows as well, it's almost always heifer calves and bred heifers that win.

Again, this JMO!

frostback · Jul 10, 2013

I would love to breed the 3rd or cow at about 40 seconds clubby. She was cool for a milker.

Bad Udders

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