Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee

Dr. Martin Lee has written an interesting article on the history of "Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle" that is in the Cattle Viewpoints section on the Heritage Shorthorn Society website (www.heritageshorthornsociety.org).

You can also get it from a lot of the Irish Shorthorns. Especially if they trace back to AF Shannon Margie 027 aka "Black Nose Margie"

They were and remain probably the greatest cow family from the time they arrived on-Ill take a black nose anytime as good as those cattle are

I’ve got an exceptional roan bull calf this year that has a dark nose— even his eyelids are dark. His exposed pigment elsewhere is pink though.  I personally dislike it and am reluctant to keep him as I sure don’t want to intensify this trait. 

Do you ever sell commercial? Hed probably be a blue maker O0

I think hoof color is more interesting to talk about. Purebred Shorthorns can have almost white hooves.......or dark hooves. One foot trimmer told me dark hooves are more durable. I don't know. Seems like in my experience........Shorthorns are better footed than Red Angus.

Dark hoofs are definitely more durable if the cattle come from non-fescue to fescue Its not that bad when they are born on fescue. O0

White footed shorthorns and Herefords imo experience do not hold up. I would agree with you aj that shorthorns as a whole are better footed than red angus. I was at a red angus bull sale this spring the only good footed bulls were the sim composites.

Several years ago, I was asked to cull a set of 380 yearling bulls of all breeds on feet and legs in a bull test station. Virtually every breed was included. Everything was going fine, with a few bulls eliminated from every breed, for feet and leg issues, until I got to the Red Angus bulls. I was concerned whether I should use the same scrutiny in them as I did with all the other breeds. They had, by far, the most bad footed bulls of any breed in the station. The biggest problem was toes that crossed and some of them were extremely bad. I think the Red Angus breed has worked hard to eliminate this issue but I am sure some still shows up occasionally.
In regards to black noses, many of the black noses in today's Shorthorns do go back to some of the Irish imports. Black noses also have existed in the breed since the very early days. i remember several imported bulls from Scotland that had black noses. Drynie Argosy was a herd sire at Remitall Cattle Co in Alberta and he had a black nose and Louis Latimer still imported him, because he thought he was the best bull he saw there and he decided to import him and breed around the black noses.  Another famous bull that came from Scotland was Glamis Benefactor, who many considered to be the best Shorthorn bull ever developed in the breed. He broke some price records when he sold. He not only had a black nose, but he had black pigment all over his body. His hair color around his eyes was black, and the skin around his anus was pitch black. I remember going to Louada Farms in Ontario, shortly after they purchased and imported the entire Denend herd from Scotland. I was surprised at the number of cows in that herd that had black noses.  A few years ago, I had a great opportunity to visit with Donald and Diana McGillvary, who owned the famous Calrossie herd in Scotland. In our discussions about the Shorthorns in the 50s and 60s in Scotland, Donald said that the reason Shorthorns had almost become extinct in the UK was because the breeders in the 50s and 60s refused to breed cattle that the commercial producers were wanting. He said that there was issues in Shorthorns in that era, with things like double muscling and he also mentioned black noses and black pigment. This visit with the McGillvary's was one I will always remember. The Calrossie herd set all sorts of records back in that era. Donald told me that in 1952, he took 13 bulls to the Perth sale and he averaged over 12,000 guinneas on them, which amounts to over an average of $120,000 in today's money evaluation.

-XBAR- said:

I’ve got an exceptional roan bull calf this year that has a dark nose— even his eyelids are dark. His exposed pigment elsewhere is pink though.  I personally dislike it and am reluctant to keep him as I sure don’t want to intensify this trait.

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all else exceptional?  what the heck is wrong with a black nose. it doesn't get sunburned as easy?

Exactly-and its probably from the ancient white cattle that ran basically wild centuries ago and whos genetics made Shorthorns very easy keeping foragers for a time -(them days is long gone Bucko)-I wonder who the "purists" sell any cattle to- when they keep eliminating phenotypes that commercial people actually would use and or not worry about such as black noses-which probably beget sturdier dark hooves. Similar to all the so-called syndicated or $150 semen bulls who are "travellors" in the same constricted circles of "breeders"-none of whom have ANY relevance to a commercial person who might try a Shorthorn in their travels or the huddled masses who only have a few cows-Which really represents a majority of Shorthorn breeders O0

mark tenenbaum said:

Exactly-and its probably from the ancient white cattle that ran basically wild centuries ago and whos genetics made Shorthorns very easy keeping foragers for a time -(them days is long gone Bucko)

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Sidetracking a bit but what makes you say that? There are lots of operations who run on mainly foraging pasture and then bales in the winter other than replacement females who see extra attention for the purpose of growth and first time breeding.

Russ

Im talking about down here-The cattle here are alot different than the Canadian cattle-Also referring to the cattle I remember in the sixties-There were plenty of things wrong with them-but the ones I used to see stayed too fat on way less than the cattle of today-and people quit using them because they thought the carcasses were too fat O0

Think he’d work on some black cows ?

Black noses are acceptable as long as they are not accompanied by blue tongues or pink eyes.

Pink eyes? Halter break one-halloween is right around the corner O0

shorthorngeek said:

Black noses are acceptable as long as they are not accompanied by blue tongues or pink eyes.

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Acceptable to who? The ASA is the only shorthorn registry in the world that allows black nose calves to be registered.  I know of no other pink pigment breed that doesn’t disqualify dark noses.  Hereford has to be pink.  Red angus pink.  Charolais, will issue 15/16ths papers (one cross short of purebred) to bulls if dark nose.  Etc. 

*telling side note.  Chars gotta be 31/32 to be issued purebred papers but breeds like Simmental will call a 7/8 a purebred, which is only 3 crosses.  Meanwhile, geneticist claim it takes 7 crosses to rid outside gene expression.  Easy to see which associations are about merit (those with closed herd books) and which are about revenue. *

-XBAR- said:

shorthorngeek said:

Black noses are acceptable as long as they are not accompanied by blue tongues or pink eyes.

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Acceptable to who? The ASA is the only shorthorn registry in the world that allows black nose calves to be registered.  I know of no other pink pigment breed that doesn’t disqualify dark noses.  Hereford has to be pink.  Red angus pink.  Charolais, will issue 15/16ths papers (one cross short of purebred) to bulls if dark nose.  Etc. 

*telling side note.  Chars gotta be 31/32 to be issued purebred papers but breeds like Simmental will call a 7/8 a purebred, which is only 3 crosses.  Meanwhile, geneticist claim it takes 7 crosses to rid outside gene expression.  Easy to see which associations are about merit (those with closed herd books) and which are about revenue. *

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Most breed association that allow for breeding up, at the 7/8 (87.5%) they will call them purebred and then in calculating animals that are sired by or out of the 7/8 animal it is figured at 100%.  This is wrong in so many ways, but if 7/8 animals are used in breeding up resulting animals will actually be much less that 7/8.  Our members have requested that breed percentage be actual and that is what we do.  They do not want any of that "fuzzy math".

One breed that we have registered a few animals of is the Milking Shorthorn.  We break out the Milking Shorthorn (MS), Illawarra(AY), Norwegian Red (NR) and Holstein (HO) breed percentage of the animal.  Most have been totally shocked as to how little Milking Shorthorn breed is in their animals.

I know in talking with some geneticist that one breed that can have an effect is the Chianina.  Animals that are as low as 3%.

Those who appear to know the history of the Shorthorn do not accept that there are Wild White Cattle in their ancestry.    The Shorthorn has an oral history of being bred "pure" since the Dukes of Northumberland back into the 1500's.    The article tries to make it clear that black noses are not an indication of impure ancestry,  but some of you just can't get your heads around that!  2nd Duke of Northumberland,  bred by Thomas Bates in the 1840's,  was a full brother to the bull he considered to be the best he ever bred,  Duke of Northumberland,  He was used in both Scotland and Ireland and figures in the early pedigrees of Shorthorns in both those countries.  2nd Duke had a black nose.