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Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2019, 07:53:48 PM »
Think hed work on some black cows ?//// Clubby Shorthorns O0
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 05:31:41 PM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2019, 07:56:03 PM »
Pink eyes? Halter break one-halloween is right around the corner O0

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Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2019, 01:19:03 PM »
Black noses are acceptable as long as they are not accompanied by blue tongues or pink eyes.

Acceptable to who? The ASA is the only shorthorn registry in the world that allows black nose calves to be registered.  I know of no other pink pigment breed that doesnt disqualify dark noses.   Hereford has to be pink.  Red angus pink.  Charolais, will issue 15/16ths papers (one cross short of purebred) to bulls if dark nose.  Etc.   

*telling side note.  Chars gotta be 31/32 to be issued purebred papers but breeds like Simmental will call a 7/8 a purebred, which is only 3 crosses.  Meanwhile, geneticist claim it takes 7 crosses to rid outside gene expression.  Easy to see which associations are about merit (those with closed herd books) and which are about revenue. *
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Offline cbcr

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Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2019, 05:25:56 PM »
Black noses are acceptable as long as they are not accompanied by blue tongues or pink eyes.

Acceptable to who? The ASA is the only shorthorn registry in the world that allows black nose calves to be registered.  I know of no other pink pigment breed that doesnt disqualify dark noses.   Hereford has to be pink.  Red angus pink.  Charolais, will issue 15/16ths papers (one cross short of purebred) to bulls if dark nose.  Etc.   

*telling side note.  Chars gotta be 31/32 to be issued purebred papers but breeds like Simmental will call a 7/8 a purebred, which is only 3 crosses.  Meanwhile, geneticist claim it takes 7 crosses to rid outside gene expression.  Easy to see which associations are about merit (those with closed herd books) and which are about revenue. *

Most breed association that allow for breeding up, at the 7/8 (87.5%) they will call them purebred and then in calculating animals that are sired by or out of the 7/8 animal it is figured at 100%.  This is wrong in so many ways, but if 7/8 animals are used in breeding up resulting animals will actually be much less that 7/8.  Our members have requested that breed percentage be actual and that is what we do.  They do not want any of that "fuzzy math".

One breed that we have registered a few animals of is the Milking Shorthorn.  We break out the Milking Shorthorn (MS), Illawarra(AY), Norwegian Red (NR) and Holstein (HO) breed percentage of the animal.  Most have been totally shocked as to how little Milking Shorthorn breed is in their animals.

I know in talking with some geneticist that one breed that can have an effect is the Chianina.  Animals that are as low as 3%.

Offline idalee

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Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2019, 05:35:29 AM »
Those who appear to know the history of the Shorthorn do not accept that there are Wild White Cattle in their ancestry.    The Shorthorn has an oral history of being bred "pure" since the Dukes of Northumberland back into the 1500's.    The article tries to make it clear that black noses are not an indication of impure ancestry,  but some of you just can't get your heads around that!   2nd Duke of Northumberland,  bred by Thomas Bates in the 1840's,  was a full brother to the bull he considered to be the best he ever bred,  Duke of Northumberland,   He was used in both Scotland and Ireland and figures in the early pedigrees of Shorthorns in both those countries.   2nd Duke had a black nose.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2019, 08:09:43 PM »
All you have to do is look at the paintings of cattle in Holland from hundreds of years ago-these cattle were bred with the hienz 57 Teeswater area cattle  to begin what became the Shorthorn gene source -The Dutch cattle JMO-carried the distinct roan gene and looked like scraggly roans from 400-500 years ago-The white cattle dont have a specific history but certainly played a part in the development animals that became Shorthorns according to very old info I read in England along time ago-And to a couple scholarly old breeders we visited. They were thought to have either come with the Roman Conquerors-(the original Chis were white-went back to early Roman Empire-and were plenty crazy enough to run wild).Others thought maybe the Vikings introduced them-WHATEVER O0

Offline DLD

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Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2019, 09:33:22 PM »
May not have much if any bearing on the conversation, but back in 1981 I showed a Shorthorn steer from Deer Trail that had a black nose. He was a good one, was breed champion or reserve every time he was shown but one, before Tulsa. A prominent Shorthorn breeder here in Oklahoma classified Shorthorn steers at the Tulsa State Fair - he kicked him out “because of his black nose”.  Which might have been reasonable except his own kids were showing Shorthorn steers and the other 5 or 6 he kicked out didn’t have black noses, but had also been doing some winning. The small satisfaction was that he missed one, and his kids didn’t have Champion - still had reserve and the next one in sale order, though.

But I digress. Deer Trail did 100% stand behind the steer being purebred.  I used to be able to tell you his sire and maternal grandsire, seems like maybe Improver and/or Leader, but i’ve slept once or twice since then. Maybe the black nose was why he was a steer and not left a bull...
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 10:05:02 PM by DLD »
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Offline beebe

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Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2019, 09:49:38 PM »
I once had a bull that was the top gaining bull at the Ideal bull test station that had a black nose.  He never sired one.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2019, 08:36:21 AM »
And furthermore-If a really good filet minon comes from a non-certified pink nose Shorthorn with a black nose-Im still gonna eat  it  O0
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 08:37:36 AM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2019, 09:25:59 AM »
May not have much if any bearing on the conversation, but back in 1981 I showed a Shorthorn steer from Deer Trail that had a black nose. He was a good one, was breed champion or reserve every time he was shown but one, before Tulsa. A prominent Shorthorn breeder here in Oklahoma classified Shorthorn steers at the Tulsa State Fair - he kicked him out because of his black nose.  Which might have been reasonable except his own kids were showing Shorthorn steers and the other 5 or 6 he kicked out didnt have black noses, but had also been doing some winning. The small satisfaction was that he missed one, and his kids didnt have Champion - still had reserve and the next one in sale order, though.

But I digress. Deer Trail did 100% stand behind the steer being purebred.  I used to be able to tell you his sire and maternal grandsire, seems like maybe Improver and/or Leader, but ive slept once or twice since then. Maybe the black nose was why he was a steer and not left a bull...  At that time he probably was sired by Guiness or possibly a Dynomite 80 who was a light roan dividend son-out of a Marvel cow-Deertrail Goliath was also a Guiness x Marvel  O0

Offline Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2019, 01:08:04 PM »
Black noses....OK.

White wild cattle is said to be part of the original stock that produced the improved Durham. Many literature describe it.
On middle 1700, Charles Colling used a half blood red Galloway bull that produces Foljambe...Galloway have black noses. It was described as Alloy blood.
Irish cattle have not pedigree accurate description, so, all options are open for Ayrshire, Holstein, Friesian and more.
Chianina have black noses and he is in some pedigrees.

So....black noses are on the genes....you must to decide to cut off or to keep in it.
I just cut off!

Offline DLD

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Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2019, 08:59:30 PM »
May not have much if any bearing on the conversation, but back in 1981 I showed a Shorthorn steer from Deer Trail that had a black nose. He was a good one, was breed champion or reserve every time he was shown but one, before Tulsa. A prominent Shorthorn breeder here in Oklahoma classified Shorthorn steers at the Tulsa State Fair - he kicked him out because of his black nose.  Which might have been reasonable except his own kids were showing Shorthorn steers and the other 5 or 6 he kicked out didnt have black noses, but had also been doing some winning. The small satisfaction was that he missed one, and his kids didnt have Champion - still had reserve and the next one in sale order, though.

But I digress. Deer Trail did 100% stand behind the steer being purebred.  I used to be able to tell you his sire and maternal grandsire, seems like maybe Improver and/or Leader, but ive slept once or twice since then. Maybe the black nose was why he was a steer and not left a bull...  At that time he probably was sired by Guiness or possibly a Dynomite 80 who was a light roan dividend son-out of a Marvel cow-Deertrail Goliath was also a Guiness x Marvel  O0

I found some old notes in my scrapbook. They said the steer was sired by Deerpark Leader 13th.  He was born in 1973, so thats sure possible. If i knew the maternal side I didnt make a note of that.
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Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2019, 10:20:00 PM »
That would be Dividend-the most influential Shorthorn from the 70s till today-Probably in terms of global influence-the farthest reaching Shorthorn bull in history O0

Offline DLD

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Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2019, 10:29:41 PM »
Shows what I know, I guess.  My family raised Polled Herefords, that was the only Shorthorn I ever had anything to do with until my kids started showing.  Weve had a handful since, but to be honest I still dont keep up with pedigrees. 
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Offline idalee

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Re: Black Noses On Shorthorn Cattle by Dr. Martin Lee
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2019, 03:48:16 PM »
Charles Colling did,  indeed,  use a bull that was one-half Galloway.   In the year 1791,  a neighbor of Colling had two Galloway heifers that he contracted to be bred to the bull Bollingbroke (86).   One,  a red,  polled heifer had a roan  bull calf in the year 1792.  This bull was bred to an old cow who had not had a calf in two years which resulted in a bull Grandson of Bollingbroke (280) and born in the year 1794.    Grandson of Bollingbroke (280) was used moderately.    Foljambe (263) was born in 1787 and therefore could not have been sired by any one of these Galloway cross bulls!   Furthermore,  there has never been any mention in Shorthorn history books that Foljambe (263) had any Galloway breeding.
The article on Heritage Shorthorns deals with the Native Shorthorn,  which,  by definition does not have any of the crosses which have occurred in the past 75 years of Shorthorn breeding.  Black noses appearing on some of those crossed-up modern Shorthorns are not the same as the black  noses appearing historically in the Shorthorn breed. 
« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 03:50:12 PM by idalee »

 

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