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Offline Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Black noses on Shorthorn
« on: October 03, 2013, 01:27:09 PM »
Guys from where that hell black noses came from???

 :o

Cattle from 70's and before show so many black noses?

I got two good calves from ET with black noses, one is black as Angus, another is more light, looks like a dark grey.

On pedigree I found Enticer (Maine blood), RPS Tribune, some Irish through TNT Fastrak and lots of Lincoln Reds.

Where is the black nose origin on Shorthorn?

Is this accept by herd books for fullblood? Know that in UK is OK for register as saw lots of blackies on Scotland and England.

Hope for answers...thanks guys!

Offline Duncraggan

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2013, 02:25:24 PM »
I don't have an answer, but have a white calf born last month with a greyish nose.  If it stays that way she will not pass inspection!  I will have a good look when they come in at the end of the month for their dose and 110-day weight.

First one I have had in many years from my purebred, registered herd.

Only imported bulls in the pedigree in the last five generations are Stonelea Winchester, GPS High Velocity 03C and Pa Do Ole Gringo 944, all in the fifth generation back!

My neighbour has Brahman cattle so it is not from his bulls either!

Offline Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2013, 04:17:16 PM »
I don't have an answer, but have a white calf born last month with a greyish nose.  If it stays that way she will not pass inspection!  I will have a good look when they come in at the end of the month for their dose and 110-day weight.

First one I have had in many years from my purebred, registered herd.

Only imported bulls in the pedigree in the last five generations are Stonelea Winchester, GPS High Velocity 03C and Pa Do Ole Gringo 944, all in the fifth generation back!

My neighbour has Brahman cattle so it is not from his bulls either!


From Brahman is out question as you will see the hump!

In commom we have the Enticer, Maine infusion and irish blood, that is told show a Galloway degree!

After so long time without black noses on your herd, can assume that genes turn more frequent and this - recessive - character appear again.

Will look for more answers.

Offline caledon101

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2013, 07:28:50 AM »
Pass Inspection?? I realize they reserve the right to make physical inspections but, I wasn't aware that the breed association is actually making the rounds? I guess I better put my coffee pot on.
We've had our share of purebred Shorts born with black noses. And interestingly, all of them that I recall were non-appendix and orginiated from top breeding establishments. We had one "fullblood" Short that was 3 colours....roan with a black nose. Excellent female too.
I am sure we all agree that every breed has it's strengths, weaknesses and areas of needed improvement. The Shorthorn breed has way more important things to focus on than nose pigmentation. We all know that white Shorthorns often have black hair around their ears or in their tails and fortunately that doesn't seem to get the Shorthorn police too excited.
If any of these associations actually start making house calls to "inspect" I suggest they do more than do an inventory of hair colour.

Offline Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2013, 07:53:15 AM »
Thanks Caledon.
Good points.
My questions was due never been got black noses until now. I'm a breed inspector here in Brazil and I saw only black noses on some appendix animals born from US appendix ancestors.
OK, Shorthorn has more important things to focus, and the black nose is an amazing roan calf, very good at my pint.
Now, maybe Angus can also register yellowish color noses on black coats on their herd book....do you think that they will do for some superb calf?  Think NO!
My questions was to try discover from where this come, not discuss if this need to be fix or let down!
Thanks for all.

Offline justintime

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2013, 09:00:56 AM »
If you are looking for the origin of black noses in Shorthorns, you better go back to the origin of the breed and start there. While black noses in some of today's Shorthorns can be traced to appendix heritage, there is probably as many black noses in Shorthorns that can be traced back to their origin in Scotland. My grandfather established our Shorthorn herd in 1917 and I can still remember him telling a story of the best bull he ever raised, who was born in 1927 from parents born in Scotland. This bull had a black nose and was pretty well worthless as a breeding animal in that era.
Glamis Benefactor was imported to America, in the 60s and was the undefeated Champion at every British show he was ever shown at. He was such a powerful bull overall, that people felt his black nose had to be overlooked as he had so much to offer the breed. I saw Benefactor at KC Shorthorn Farms, and not only was his nose black but his entire head was black as well. He had black pigment on most of his body. 
Another excellent bull that was imported from Scotland that had a black nose was Drynie Argosy. He was purchased by Remitall Cattle Co, Olds, AB when they were looking for a new herd sire in the 60s as well. Not only did Argosy have a black nose, but he was red and white in color, which was shunned as much as black noses in that day. Remitall decided to bring him to Canada despite these characteristics as they felt he was the best overall bull they could find in Scotland.
I am not sure exactly where the black noses started but I am pretty sure it goes back to the foundation of the breed. Three years ago, I had the good fortune to visit with Donald and Diana McGillvary of Calrossie, in Scotland.  Donald was in his 80s but his memory was crystal clear yet. His father and grandfather had leading roles in the history of the Shorthorn breed in Scotland. In our discussion, he said that there has been many animals over the years that had questionable genetics in their makeup. We like to think of all these cattle that originated from Scotland, as being pure as fresh fallen snow, but according to Donald McGillvary, there were questionable genetics in all breeds. He also said that because the Shorthorn and Angus breeds were developed in close proximity, that there was some cross over between the breeds in the early stages of the breeds . Some of this was accidental and some was intentional by dishonest breeders who only wanted to gain success with their animals.
Cattle from the Irish strain of Shorthorns have an even higher chance of black noses. Deerpark Improver had a black nose and black noses have appeared from many other Irish animals.
I am also not sure how the black nose is inherited, as it can appear from parents who have no black noses for many many generations in their pedigree. I had an ET calf about 5 years ago that had a black nose. This calf was DNA parentage verified to parents with no appendix in their pedigree. There was some Irish breeding 7 generations back but the particular Irish animals did not have black noses.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 09:02:08 AM by justintime »
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Offline Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2013, 09:25:20 AM »
Thansk JIT, very good explanation.
I'm assuming that black nose is a character inherited from past, not appearing much due official standard cuts, similar to red coat o Angus.
Thank you for your explanation.
 (thumbsup)

Offline caledon101

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2013, 03:52:58 PM »
Amazing historical information Grant! I can only imagine what the purebred scene would be like today, as it was many years ago, if all of the tools for parentage verification didn't exist....no DNA or blood typing technology available!
We purchased genetics from some of the top breeding establishments in Canada and those black noses popped up now and then!
Attached is a pic of a 4 month old heifer that came from one of the top cow families of Scotsdale....as reputable as it gets. She's got that black nose!

Offline Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2013, 04:14:42 PM »
My black nose. One of them.
More two are here.

Online Medium Rare

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2013, 06:22:22 PM »
My black nose. One of them.
More two are here.

Is there some black in it's tail end too or is it just really dark red?

Offline Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2013, 07:31:37 PM »
My black nose. One of them.
More two are here.

Is there some black in it's tail end too or is it just really dark red?


Is dark red.
Black only the nose.

Offline sue

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2013, 07:54:11 PM »
If you are looking for the origin of black noses in Shorthorns, you better go back to the origin of the breed and start there. While black noses in some of today's Shorthorns can be traced to appendix heritage, there is probably as many black noses in Shorthorns that can be traced back to their origin in Scotland. My grandfather established our Shorthorn herd in 1917 and I can still remember him telling a story of the best bull he ever raised, who was born in 1927 from parents born in Scotland. This bull had a black nose and was pretty well worthless as a breeding animal in that era.
Glamis Benefactor was imported to America, in the 60s and was the undefeated Champion at every British show he was ever shown at. He was such a powerful bull overall, that people felt his black nose had to be overlooked as he had so much to offer the breed. I saw Benefactor at KC Shorthorn Farms, and not only was his nose black but his entire head was black as well. He had black pigment on most of his body. 
Another excellent bull that was imported from Scotland that had a black nose was Drynie Argosy. He was purchased by Remitall Cattle Co, Olds, AB when they were looking for a new herd sire in the 60s as well. Not only did Argosy have a black nose, but he was red and white in color, which was shunned as much as black noses in that day. Remitall decided to bring him to Canada despite these characteristics as they felt he was the best overall bull they could find in Scotland.
I am not sure exactly where the black noses started but I am pretty sure it goes back to the foundation of the breed. Three years ago, I had the good fortune to visit with Donald and Diana McGillvary of Calrossie, in Scotland.  Donald was in his 80s but his memory was crystal clear yet. His father and grandfather had leading roles in the history of the Shorthorn breed in Scotland. In our discussion, he said that there has been many animals over the years that had questionable genetics in their makeup. We like to think of all these cattle that originated from Scotland, as being pure as fresh fallen snow, but according to Donald McGillvary, there were questionable genetics in all breeds. He also said that because the Shorthorn and Angus breeds were developed in close proximity, that there was some cross over between the breeds in the early stages of the breeds . Some of this was accidental and some was intentional by dishonest breeders who only wanted to gain success with their animals.
Cattle from the Irish strain of Shorthorns have an even higher chance of black noses. Deerpark Improver had a black nose and black noses have appeared from many other Irish animals.
I am also not sure how the black nose is inherited, as it can appear from parents who have no black noses for many many generations in their pedigree. I had an ET calf about 5 years ago that had a black nose. This calf was DNA parentage verified to parents with no appendix in their pedigree. There was some Irish breeding 7 generations back but the particular Irish animals did not have black noses.
I am afraid it stems before the 60's - Grandpa and great Uncle Eldon showed in the19 30 and 40's . My father tells stories of using a steaming hot baked potato on the nose . The scarred tissue was pulled off show morning - "bright pink noses placed higher in class". The Lavender cow family was moved from the middle of the class to the top for that reason alone.
Registered Red Angus x Shorthorn Composite Cattle. www.lakesidecattle.com

Offline Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2013, 08:43:15 PM »
If you are looking for the origin of black noses in Shorthorns, you better go back to the origin of the breed and start there. While black noses in some of today's Shorthorns can be traced to appendix heritage, there is probably as many black noses in Shorthorns that can be traced back to their origin in Scotland. My grandfather established our Shorthorn herd in 1917 and I can still remember him telling a story of the best bull he ever raised, who was born in 1927 from parents born in Scotland. This bull had a black nose and was pretty well worthless as a breeding animal in that era.
Glamis Benefactor was imported to America, in the 60s and was the undefeated Champion at every British show he was ever shown at. He was such a powerful bull overall, that people felt his black nose had to be overlooked as he had so much to offer the breed. I saw Benefactor at KC Shorthorn Farms, and not only was his nose black but his entire head was black as well. He had black pigment on most of his body. 
Another excellent bull that was imported from Scotland that had a black nose was Drynie Argosy. He was purchased by Remitall Cattle Co, Olds, AB when they were looking for a new herd sire in the 60s as well. Not only did Argosy have a black nose, but he was red and white in color, which was shunned as much as black noses in that day. Remitall decided to bring him to Canada despite these characteristics as they felt he was the best overall bull they could find in Scotland.
I am not sure exactly where the black noses started but I am pretty sure it goes back to the foundation of the breed. Three years ago, I had the good fortune to visit with Donald and Diana McGillvary of Calrossie, in Scotland.  Donald was in his 80s but his memory was crystal clear yet. His father and grandfather had leading roles in the history of the Shorthorn breed in Scotland. In our discussion, he said that there has been many animals over the years that had questionable genetics in their makeup. We like to think of all these cattle that originated from Scotland, as being pure as fresh fallen snow, but according to Donald McGillvary, there were questionable genetics in all breeds. He also said that because the Shorthorn and Angus breeds were developed in close proximity, that there was some cross over between the breeds in the early stages of the breeds . Some of this was accidental and some was intentional by dishonest breeders who only wanted to gain success with their animals.
Cattle from the Irish strain of Shorthorns have an even higher chance of black noses. Deerpark Improver had a black nose and black noses have appeared from many other Irish animals.
I am also not sure how the black nose is inherited, as it can appear from parents who have no black noses for many many generations in their pedigree. I had an ET calf about 5 years ago that had a black nose. This calf was DNA parentage verified to parents with no appendix in their pedigree. There was some Irish breeding 7 generations back but the particular Irish animals did not have black noses.
I am afraid it stems before the 60's - Grandpa and great Uncle Eldon showed in the19 30 and 40's . My father tells stories of using a steaming hot baked potato on the nose . The scarred tissue was pulled off show morning - "bright pink noses placed higher in class". The Lavender cow family was moved from the middle of the class to the top for that reason alone.

OK, but the black turn again after a time...or not?
Burning the superficial tissue you is taking off it, but it turn black again or not?
By the way, isn't a honest way to sale bulls, as they will pass it for progeny.
Will keep it black and sale for commercial purpose.
Thanks a lot for all.

Offline sue

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2013, 06:04:35 AM »
If you are looking for the origin of black noses in Shorthorns, you better go back to the origin of the breed and start there. While black noses in some of today's Shorthorns can be traced to appendix heritage, there is probably as many black noses in Shorthorns that can be traced back to their origin in Scotland. My grandfather established our Shorthorn herd in 1917 and I can still remember him telling a story of the best bull he ever raised, who was born in 1927 from parents born in Scotland. This bull had a black nose and was pretty well worthless as a breeding animal in that era.
Glamis Benefactor was imported to America, in the 60s and was the undefeated Champion at every British show he was ever shown at. He was such a powerful bull overall, that people felt his black nose had to be overlooked as he had so much to offer the breed. I saw Benefactor at KC Shorthorn Farms, and not only was his nose black but his entire head was black as well. He had black pigment on most of his body. 
Another excellent bull that was imported from Scotland that had a black nose was Drynie Argosy. He was purchased by Remitall Cattle Co, Olds, AB when they were looking for a new herd sire in the 60s as well. Not only did Argosy have a black nose, but he was red and white in color, which was shunned as much as black noses in that day. Remitall decided to bring him to Canada despite these characteristics as they felt he was the best overall bull they could find in Scotland.
I am not sure exactly where the black noses started but I am pretty sure it goes back to the foundation of the breed. Three years ago, I had the good fortune to visit with Donald and Diana McGillvary of Calrossie, in Scotland.  Donald was in his 80s but his memory was crystal clear yet. His father and grandfather had leading roles in the history of the Shorthorn breed in Scotland. In our discussion, he said that there has been many animals over the years that had questionable genetics in their makeup. We like to think of all these cattle that originated from Scotland, as being pure as fresh fallen snow, but according to Donald McGillvary, there were questionable genetics in all breeds. He also said that because the Shorthorn and Angus breeds were developed in close proximity, that there was some cross over between the breeds in the early stages of the breeds . Some of this was accidental and some was intentional by dishonest breeders who only wanted to gain success with their animals.
Cattle from the Irish strain of Shorthorns have an even higher chance of black noses. Deerpark Improver had a black nose and black noses have appeared from many other Irish animals.
I am also not sure how the black nose is inherited, as it can appear from parents who have no black noses for many many generations in their pedigree. I had an ET calf about 5 years ago that had a black nose. This calf was DNA parentage verified to parents with no appendix in their pedigree. There was some Irish breeding 7 generations back but the particular Irish animals did not have black noses.
I am afraid it stems before the 60's - Grandpa and great Uncle Eldon showed in the19 30 and 40's . My father tells stories of using a steaming hot baked potato on the nose . The scarred tissue was pulled off show morning - "bright pink noses placed higher in class". The Lavender cow family was moved from the middle of the class to the top for that reason alone.

OK, but the black turn again after a time...or not?
Burning the superficial tissue you is taking off it, but it turn black again or not?
By the way, isn't a honest way to sale bulls, as they will pass it for progeny.
Will keep it black and sale for commercial purpose.
Thanks a lot for all.
I didnt get the feeling the baked potato was used on just "smutty noses" it was used on all of the show string . Grand father was a honest man, bulls vigor and libido was a much larger concern especially into the 50's .
Registered Red Angus x Shorthorn Composite Cattle. www.lakesidecattle.com

Offline irishshorthorns

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Re: Black noses on Shorthorn
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2013, 08:52:31 AM »
If you are looking for the origin of black noses in Shorthorns, you better go back to the origin of the breed and start there. While black noses in some of today's Shorthorns can be traced to appendix heritage, there is probably as many black noses in Shorthorns that can be traced back to their origin in Scotland. My grandfather established our Shorthorn herd in 1917 and I can still remember him telling a story of the best bull he ever raised, who was born in 1927 from parents born in Scotland. This bull had a black nose and was pretty well worthless as a breeding animal in that era.
Glamis Benefactor was imported to America, in the 60s and was the undefeated Champion at every British show he was ever shown at. He was such a powerful bull overall, that people felt his black nose had to be overlooked as he had so much to offer the breed. I saw Benefactor at KC Shorthorn Farms, and not only was his nose black but his entire head was black as well. He had black pigment on most of his body. 
Another excellent bull that was imported from Scotland that had a black nose was Drynie Argosy. He was purchased by Remitall Cattle Co, Olds, AB when they were looking for a new herd sire in the 60s as well. Not only did Argosy have a black nose, but he was red and white in color, which was shunned as much as black noses in that day. Remitall decided to bring him to Canada despite these characteristics as they felt he was the best overall bull they could find in Scotland.
I am not sure exactly where the black noses started but I am pretty sure it goes back to the foundation of the breed. Three years ago, I had the good fortune to visit with Donald and Diana McGillvary of Calrossie, in Scotland.  Donald was in his 80s but his memory was crystal clear yet. His father and grandfather had leading roles in the history of the Shorthorn breed in Scotland. In our discussion, he said that there has been many animals over the years that had questionable genetics in their makeup. We like to think of all these cattle that originated from Scotland, as being pure as fresh fallen snow, but according to Donald McGillvary, there were questionable genetics in all breeds. He also said that because the Shorthorn and Angus breeds were developed in close proximity, that there was some cross over between the breeds in the early stages of the breeds . Some of this was accidental and some was intentional by dishonest breeders who only wanted to gain success with their animals.
Cattle from the Irish strain of Shorthorns have an even higher chance of black noses. Deerpark Improver had a black nose and black noses have appeared from many other Irish animals.
I am also not sure how the black nose is inherited, as it can appear from parents who have no black noses for many many generations in their pedigree. I had an ET calf about 5 years ago that had a black nose. This calf was DNA parentage verified to parents with no appendix in their pedigree. There was some Irish breeding 7 generations back but the particular Irish animals did not have black noses.
(quote)

DEERPARK IMPOOVER DID NOT HAVE A BLACK NOSE! See attached photograph.

 

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