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Offline aj

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Black shorthorns
« on: August 10, 2018, 03:06:52 PM »
I got to thinking about this lately. If a 20 year old got into a project like this. I would think in 20 years when they turned 40. They could get their. Start out with 20 Shorthorn cows.........and breed them to the best Angus bulls. Out of those 20 half blood black calves. Keep back one bull calf....or more......and breed them to the females.......even if they were half sibs. Continue on down the road......repeat. Try different angus bulls on the original cows......whatever you need to ........start raising you Shorthorn % eventually.........in 20 years.....seems like you could really accomplish something.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline aj

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Re: Black shorthorns
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2018, 03:16:04 PM »
I guess I thought about this because tomorrow the Kansas Shorthorn Assn Western Kansas tour is gonna stop here. I been working on my explanation to why I jumped into the Shorthorn-Red Angus composite experiment 10 years ago. We actually used 3 full brother half bloods over the years. Bred half sibs to half sibs. Uncles to nieces and what ever. I am not really quite where I wanted to be 10 years later. I'm damn near 60 so I most likely don't have another 20 years left to play the game. As I understand it there can be a 15th-16ths black registered Shorthorn but not purebred....? Maybe its they can never get a "red" paper.....I'm not sure. I was supposed to get on the tle conference shorthorn plus group call this month. Any comments?
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline oakview

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Re: Black shorthorns
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2018, 09:17:37 PM »
I'm somewhat of a traditionalist.  You can keep the black ones, give me the reds, whites, and roans.  I'll take my home raised Shorthorn beef over a Hardee's Certified Angus burger any day.  I haven't been able to figure out why black is best, other than a lot of money says it is. 

Offline Junky

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Re: Black shorthorns
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2018, 03:39:24 AM »
Amen

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Black shorthorns
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2018, 03:16:09 PM »
Why they let the Durham Red deal go nowhere is beyond me-they need a group of people who still have them to force the issues of years of hard work for no support to speak of. I nominate Sue and AJ to take it to them-they abandoned a VERY viable idea-I saw some of them-and JMO-I think Red Angus are better than black Angus-because for the most part they seem to be pretty well unmolested O0

Offline cbcr

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Re: Black shorthorns
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2018, 06:02:35 PM »
If the American Shorthorn Association won't recognize the Durham Reds, we as the Composite Registries would be honored to work with the Durham Red Breeders.

Offline Duncraggan

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Re: Black shorthorns
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2018, 06:48:50 PM »
I got to thinking about this lately. If a 20 year old got into a project like this. I would think in 20 years when they turned 40. They could get their. Start out with 20 Shorthorn cows.........and breed them to the best Angus bulls. Out of those 20 half blood black calves. Keep back one bull calf....or more......and breed them to the females.......even if they were half sibs. Continue on down the road......repeat. Try different angus bulls on the original cows......whatever you need to ........start raising you Shorthorn % eventually.........in 20 years.....seems like you could really accomplish something.
With all due respect aj, this seems to be a fruitless pursuit in my opinion. That is what commercial breeders do, not seedstock producers!
If you've got 20 years ahead of you to experiment, why not try to improve something good already, rather than try to start something new from scratch. You would have a ten-year jump start from day one!
JMO

Offline sue

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Re: Black shorthorns
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2018, 01:32:31 PM »
Mark
I am barely a member of Shorthorn Association. I was formerly on the ShorthornPlus committee. My group of durham red females is again stacked pedigrees and I have a red angus cow base and started in 2006.
 So back in 2006 and 07 the isssue with papering DR was ASA wanted to have all performance data on the paper before handing out DR papers ( this meant DR papers after yearling weights and SC in the case of bulls were reported)  the step made sense unleass you sold a group of weaners . So the buyer takes a set and in the mail comes a Shorthorn Plus paper?!  Also want to note that DR papers also meant Genetic Defect free for both Shorthorn issues and REd Angus. To my knowledge and after  discussion many times- this is not the case if you use Black Angus genetics to acquire a plus animal. In other words if you turn out a sh bull on a group of black angus with or without papers - ASA does not require genetic test for any of  the Black Angus issues.
 
Durham Blacks " if you will" can work in alot of ways it's just easier and less paper work- easier to be black, right.  But alot of blanks in the paper for the potential buyer.
 My advice is if you use Red or Black bulls then make sure the complete paper shows up in your Plus paper, ASA will add the pedigree information.  I have looked for new % bulls and found alot of blanks and when I call it's usually back to unpapered black cow.
Since 2004 couple of nice things have happend: ASA changed the word Appendix to ShorthornPlus. I believe this was under the leadership of John Sullivan. Also the addition to the Plus show both at National and local levels. Slowly more and more see the versitility in the Shorthorn x Angus influence cattle - I prefer the portfolio of the Red angus genetic base but would consider both as long as the papers show genetics top and bottom.
ASA has marketing material for Black and blue.

Registered Red Angus x Shorthornx Charolais Composite Cattle. www.lakesidecattle.com

Offline aj

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Re: Black shorthorns
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2018, 02:18:57 PM »
I like the reds. I think a lot of the Red Angus cattle are better and purer than the Black Angus. The Red Angus never chased the show ring like the black Angus breed in the 90's. There were frame score 8 and 9 all over the. The Red Angus NEVER chased the frame deal.....by adding chi or Holstein. They just kept plodding along selecting for economically traits.

People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline aj

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Re: Black shorthorns
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2018, 02:31:29 PM »
What % market share does the Shorthorn breed own in the beef industry? Maybe 1 %. So for one thing there is no way to go but up. Why is the Shortorn breed even exist? There are some very very very good Angus cattle. They actually have epds worth looking. They have identified curve benders and all kinds of data. I would argue that pulling in proven Angus curve benders.......blend them into the Shorthorn breed and (essentially stealing proven traits of economical value). The Angus stole the Holstein breeds marbling ability over the years. The current 1% market share of bull sales are a joke. If the red Shorthorn s hang around 50 years.......100 years......what ever they may become more of force in the beef industry model. If some body used some 6807 black Angus influence and put it in the Shorthorn breed (even if they didn't go the black) route............I don't know........seems like no one is doing it. Just food for thought.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline aj

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Re: Black shorthorns
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2018, 02:40:45 PM »
I wondered if they had one Durham Red Show a year.........for Durham Reds that might regenerate the Durham Red concept. But I am kid of with Sue's like of thinking. If the Durham Red show allowed th and pha and ds carriers like the Shorthorn plus........you are really going no where fast. Has there ever been a shorthorn plus that was showed........and been th and pha free. I doubt it cause these genetic defect carriers (have the look).
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline sue

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Re: Black shorthorns
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2018, 03:01:25 PM »
I wondered if they had one Durham Red Show a year.........for Durham Reds that might regenerate the Durham Red concept. But I am kid of with Sue's like of thinking. If the Durham Red show allowed th and pha and ds carriers like the Shorthorn plus........you are really going no where fast. Has there ever been a shorthorn plus that was showed........and been th and pha free. I doubt it cause these genetic defect carriers (have the look).
I thought the first National Show year they included the word Durham Red with Plus? We sold a DR in our sale back in 07 and had entered her in NAILE. Kastel Show Cattle of Michigan purchased her - she has made them money and her mother was a former two National Champion Red Angus that Phil Trowbridge bred and showed. Kastels have mated her mulitiple ways and Lana is still going strong.
Registered Red Angus x Shorthornx Charolais Composite Cattle. www.lakesidecattle.com

Offline aj

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Re: Black shorthorns
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2018, 04:00:39 PM »
I'm not sure Sue. I know we showed a "Durham Red" in the plus show at the Kansas State fair last year. I guess that is what made me happy back when........the Durham Reds could be shown........in the plus shows. I imagined that Durham Reds would show up all over the place. I think the reason people don't like Durham Reds is because they look like Red Angus.....even if they are 3-4ths Shorthorn. It's kinda like beer drinkers. Coors  people wth fight to the death with Budweiser people. grin
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline idalee

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Re: Black shorthorns
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2018, 12:00:35 AM »
I guess everybody has the right to do whatever they like.   However,  breeding 'black shorthorns',  in my opinion,  is like developing a polled longhorn.   

Offline Medium Rare

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Re: Black shorthorns
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2018, 12:19:27 AM »
I don't have the urge to do it, but I think someone with time and the right marketing desires could have some luck by "fixing" the blue roan gene into a "new breed" of Angus x Shorthorn cross. It basically already exists with another breed, but it doesn't have the blue roan image to tie to. Selling someone something old as something new has worked well for several marketers recently.

I've had Shorthorn x Angus and Red Angus along side Shorthorn females for quite some time. I've always found if you're going to retain anything out of the F1s you should probably make sure it has more Shorthorn than Angus in it.

Seems like the Red Angus association has obviously moved on from the Shorthorns with their new "red baldy" program involving the Hereford association. It's a shame, but the new program obviously has a color combo to tie some advertising to. The Durham Red deal was just another red cow to the untrained eye where the red baldy can distinguish itself from the crowd. As with anything, it requires determination and two cooperating partners to become a success and I'm not sure the Durham Red deal really had either.

 

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