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Offline Limiman12

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BODY RATIO:WEANING WEIGHT
« on: August 07, 2013, 06:21:36 PM »
A post on another thread got me thinking on this......

how much of a direct relationship would there be between say a measurable stat such as (hip height-height of umbilical)/ hip height  to the the weaning weight of the cow's calf?

I think it is pretty widly believed that the relationship exists, but it would be interesting to see it in numbers........

When my daughter gets a little older might be a good science fair project for her, last year she did "which do cows perfer grass or corn?"   all the cows on grass ate the corn, the two cows that were still up in the calving pen picked the freshly cut grass in case anyone wondered if the grass was greener on the other side of the fence.........
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Offline -XBAR-

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Re: BODY RATIO:WEANING WEIGHT
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2013, 10:54:37 PM »
I do not believe any relationship like that exist.
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Offline Limiman12

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Re: BODY RATIO:WEANING WEIGHT
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2013, 12:23:42 AM »
You don't think their is a relationship between depth of body and ability of a cow to wean a calf?
Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work as hard.      Tim Tebow

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Re: BODY RATIO:WEANING WEIGHT
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2013, 10:05:29 AM »
Maybe I misunderstood the question.  I didn't quite understand your formula:

(hip height-height of umbilical)/ hip height     Is this to be calculated as hip height minus height of navel and then that difference divided back by hip height?

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Offline Limiman12

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Re: BODY RATIO:WEANING WEIGHT
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2013, 10:31:24 AM »
Hip height minus the height to the naval would give you depth of body.......   Divided by hip height would give you the percentage of height that is depth of body.    A say a cow is 66 inches at the hip, her belly is 22 inches of the ground.......    66-22.    44.    44/66.       .66666666.  Or 67%of that cows depth is body mass

Then plotting that ratio against the cows weaning weight of her calf.

Also thought of measuring circumstance of rib cage just behind front shoulder, at last rib, and at flank......   Start playing with the numbers and see which of the phenotype measurements most closely translates with a direct relationship to pounds of calf weaned......
Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work as hard.      Tim Tebow

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Re: BODY RATIO:WEANING WEIGHT
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2013, 11:25:23 AM »
In a commerical type operation where cattle are to consume low quality feedstufs with limited to no supplementation besides in the winter,  I absolutely agree with you that there is a strong correlation between percent of body mass relative to total height.  The understanding being shallower made cattle don't have the ability to consume enough low quality forage to stay fat enough to raise a calf to their potential. 

That being said, if a more tubular flatter sided cow is exposed to enough higher quality feedstuff and she also has the ability to produce enough milk to raise a calf to its potential, idk that the correlation would be as strong. Or even exist. 
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Offline Limiman12

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Re: BODY RATIO:WEANING WEIGHT
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2013, 11:43:21 AM »
It would be interesting to chart this in several different herds......   Obviously in a herd the cattle would tend to be of similar type but would have the same or nearly the same feed in front of them.    I would think though that the relationship would still exist in high quality feed situations.....   Able to more thoroughly digest with larger volume in deeper made cattle.....   My daughter is in first drake this year, this sounds like more of a fourth or fifth grade science fair project.......
Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work as hard.      Tim Tebow

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Re: BODY RATIO:WEANING WEIGHT
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2013, 12:16:47 PM »
In general, deeper made cattle are earlier maturing.  Earlier maturing cattle are not known known for rapid growth.  Their known to excel in maternal traits which are antagonistic to terminal growth traits.  Simply evaluating the phenotypes of the growthier continental breeds relative to the traditional British breed phenotype should be enough to dispute this correlation you're trying to make. The only kicker is that the continentals, or even the very growthy British cattle for that matter, can only reach this potential if consuming a high enough energy ration. They have a higher maintenance requirement therefore if nutrition is marginal, the ground sow type may be able to compete and even beat their flatter sided counterparts.  Cattle winning ADG contest are not capacious in terms of body/ rib shape.
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Offline r.n.reed

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Re: BODY RATIO:WEANING WEIGHT
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2013, 01:21:17 PM »
In a commercial type operation where cattle are to consume low quality feedstuffs with limited to no supplementation besides in the winter,  I absolutely agree with you that there is a strong correlation between percent of body mass relative to total height.  The understanding being shallower made cattle don't have the ability to consume enough low quality forage to stay fat enough to raise a calf to their potential. 

That being said, if a more tubular flatter sided cow is exposed to enough higher quality feedstuff and she also has the ability to produce enough milk to raise a calf to its potential, idk that the correlation would be as strong. Or even exist. 
I believe a seedstock cow herd should consume low quality foodstuffs with little supplementation    as well if they are going to produce cattle to reliably work in a commercial environment.
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Offline JimF

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Re: BODY RATIO:WEANING WEIGHT
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2013, 01:39:59 PM »
X-Bar - your comment "Cattle winning ADG contest(s) are not capacious in terms of body/rib shape" - with this absurd comment I would suggest that you stick to commenting on the very numerous Shorthorn threads and leave the factual comments to other folks

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Re: BODY RATIO:WEANING WEIGHT
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2013, 05:55:51 PM »
X-Bar - your comment "Cattle winning ADG contest(s) are not capacious in terms of body/rib shape" - with this absurd comment I would suggest that you stick to commenting on the very numerous Shorthorn threads and leave the factual comments to other folks

All I deal in are facts. How can you dispute a claim and not bring any evidence forth?  Talk about absurdity.

There's a reason cattle are thought of in terminal vs maternal (phenotype) terms.  Do yourself a favor and educate yourself. Simply analyze the phenotypes of the French Fullblood Chars and Limos that are gaining 6+lbs a day on feed test.  These cattle are extremely shallow gutted and tubular- like a paper towel roll! 
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Re: BODY RATIO:WEANING WEIGHT
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2013, 06:13:18 PM »
In a commercial type operation where cattle are to consume low quality feedstuffs with limited to no supplementation besides in the winter,  I absolutely agree with you that there is a strong correlation between percent of body mass relative to total height.  The understanding being shallower made cattle don't have the ability to consume enough low quality forage to stay fat enough to raise a calf to their potential. 

That being said, if a more tubular flatter sided cow is exposed to enough higher quality feedstuff and she also has the ability to produce enough milk to raise a calf to its potential, idk that the correlation would be as strong. Or even exist. 
I believe a seedstock cow herd should consume low quality foodstuffs with little supplementation    as well if they are going to produce cattle to reliably work in a commercial environment.

In terms of quality, how would you describe the alfalfa your cattle were grazing when I was there? Low quality to me, is 6-8% CP and mid to high 40% TDN.
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Offline Limiman12

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Re: BODY RATIO:WEANING WEIGHT
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2013, 10:20:06 PM »
Are they shallow made? Or being pushed so hard on feed they don't develop gut......    We have a predominately limi herd that is anything but shallow made cows.......   Sold a calf that was high percentage limi to a kid for a show calf.   He left the farm deep flanked and pretty darn soggy.   I was looking forward to seeing him develop......  Kid never gave him a piece of hay, he gained 4.5/ day and was a shell of the calf tight flanked and shallow....   With all the feed supplements to deepen a calf up, don't you think when fed nothing but high energy the opposite should be true?
Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work as hard.      Tim Tebow

Offline Limiman12

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Re: BODY RATIO:WEANING WEIGHT
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2013, 10:24:17 PM »
Also to me, terminal vs maternal is not depth....    Head shape, neck and shoulder shape, shape of hip, leg structure......   
Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work as hard.      Tim Tebow

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Re: BODY RATIO:WEANING WEIGHT
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2013, 11:56:29 PM »
Are they shallow made? Or being pushed so hard on feed they don't develop gut......    We have a predominately limi herd that is anything but shallow made cows.......   Sold a calf that was high percentage limi to a kid for a show calf.   He left the farm deep flanked and pretty darn soggy.   I was looking forward to seeing him develop......  Kid never gave him a piece of hay, he gained 4.5/ day and was a shell of the calf tight flanked and shallow....   With all the feed supplements to deepen a calf up, don't you think when fed nothing but high energy the opposite should be true?

It has nothing to do with feed. Terminal to me refers to phenotype design and muscle pattern. The descriptors youve stated dont independently define maternal or terminal to me as none youve listed are performance oriented characteristics.

I wasn't referring to purebred limos or even the North American fullblood as they have lost their highly specialized terminal phenotype in an attempt to become more maternal and more well rounded.  I specifically said French Fullbloods as they accentuate my point the best. There is not one supplement in the world that will increase rib shape as is STRUCTURAL.

Perhaps pictures will help best explain: no one in the world would describe these cattle as capacious.
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