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Author Topic: Breeding heifers.  (Read 7710 times)

Offline BroncoFan

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Breeding heifers.
« on: June 07, 2020, 08:23:55 AM »
Im trying to write this without bashing on anyone. Im just hoping someone can educate me on the why. Im hoping for a good and honest discussion without the mud flinging. I want to talk about breeding heifer divisions at jackpot shows. The kind Im preferring to is the kind where all breeds and crossbreds compete in the same division. In my mind, usually the champion is flat and a tick frail.
 Most of the time the champion is an angus, simangus, or Simmental. When I look at these champion heifers, I wonder if theyll ever make a competitive show steer. Some might tell me that their place is to produce heifers or bulls. In the beef industry, do we want flat light boned cattle? If so, the champion steer should also be a little bit flat and frail. I think theyre a disconnect between the market steer division and the breeding heifer division. The market steer had a mother to hopefully calved on her own and milked.
Now Im not saying a super clubby market heifer should win a breeding division show but I believe a breeding heifer should have a little shape and bone. Im still waiting on watching a Shorthorn, Maine, Hereford, etc to win a breed show. I watched some good heifers that are just as sound but are still feminine but get dinged because they have a little shape and a little power.
Im looking at as a perspective of a parent and wondering if it will ever be worth dragging a heifer to a show. We just wouldnt make any money on trying to make show steers out of these champion breeding heifers.

« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 08:31:50 AM by BroncoFan »

Offline knabe

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Re: Breeding heifers.
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2020, 09:21:24 AM »
bone and power, round bone instead of flat is not feminine.


it's a sign, not necessarily true, that hormones are not optimum for year after year fertility.


this is born out by years of experience by animal breeders of all breeders and mother nature herself.


it's hard to resist picking females that look like steers.
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Offline BroncoFan

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Re: Breeding heifers.
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2020, 09:55:02 AM »
Im not saying we should pick heifers that look like steers. Im just wondering why the heifers have to be 2D.

Offline BroncoFan

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Re: Breeding heifers.
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2020, 10:13:32 AM »
I guess what Im trying to say is in my opinion the champion breeding heifer that Im describing her steer calves probably wont ever be competitive in the show ring and the champion market steers sisters probably wont be competitive in a breeding show. There isnt a correlation or connection between the two.




Offline knabe

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Re: Breeding heifers.
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2020, 10:51:01 AM »
maybe a string of pictures of females that have had champion fort worth etc steers would be in order and compare them to winning breeding females.

champion steers are probably freaks and not easily reproducible.

i wonder how many cows people have and sift through that other people have to find the champions steer.

at some level, there can only be one champion steer.

has there ever been a female that has had the champion steer and champion female in the same show in the same year?

i don't think very many steers would clone well and make bulls that make good steers.

who knows.


good topic.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 10:54:27 AM by knabe »
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Offline CRS

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Re: Breeding heifers.
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2020, 11:20:44 PM »
Knabe, there is the Solid Gold Bull of Brandon Horns that was a clone of a champion show steer and has gone on to be a big part in their program.
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Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Breeding heifers.
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2020, 09:10:20 AM »
"shape and power" are certainly not traits I want to see in breeding females. The hormones that are responsible for shape and power are antagonistic to female reproduction.  Id like to see them move towards an even more feminine design.  The cattleman that are dinging those buff heifers do so because they've turned those types out before and realized how poorly they performed.   IF anything, the disconnect is that the steers are way too extreme.  It takes an androgynous if not masculine type female to create the winning market type steers: a type cow that just doesn't exist outside the halter world.   So you have to pick which lane youre going to play in: show steers or breeding show heifers or beef cattle.   There are very specialized cattle in each group- but like with all things specialized, they tend to do horribly outside their specific lane.

Offline Chuck Wagon

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Re: Breeding heifers.
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2020, 09:37:27 AM »
Excellent point X-Bar, you have to decide what program you want.  With the technology available to us now, cloning, sexed semen, ET, we can do thing with our program that we didn't have 50 years ago.

Market heifers and breeding heifers are two very different animals and truth be known, the breeder getting a market heifer wanted a steer.  Market heifers have their place in producing functional calves depending on bull selection. 

 I heard a podcast talking about a Judge giving reasons for placing and saying his donor is sitting in third, but can't move her up because she has too much power. 


Offline BroncoFan

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Re: Breeding heifers.
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2020, 02:44:17 PM »
We should stop showing our Maine and Shorthorn heifers and just focus on steers even though we arent having trouble getting them to breed up and our friends cant get their angus and simangus heifers to settle.

Offline BroncoFan

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Re: Breeding heifers.
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2020, 01:45:06 PM »
Can anyone point me towards reputable websites that explain the correlation between shape/bone and it being hormonal?

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Breeding heifers.
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2020, 03:35:19 PM »
Not specifically relevant but should give some conceptual insight as to the mechanisms at play.

Search hormones and their impact on body composition. 


https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/80/4/966/4690404

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Breeding heifers.
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2020, 04:05:15 PM »
Basically if you look at Chris Blacks, Horns, and a number of similar sales you will see sisters, dams etc to some of the Fort Worth  winning steers-This year Black has almost 400 head in his sale-That many cattle didnt just lounge around a barnyard And they are some pretty freaky looking females There are way more of those types in that market but they have to work just like the other cows From what Ive seen lately the show  deal is starting to change a little-to sounder steers with more performance And they look a little more like breeding cattle-picked it up too in kris blacks comments RE the bulls hes selling -So functional and  carcass characteristics are beginning to come into play The Champion Shorthorn steer at iowa beef expo who was reserve at Badger behind a big time Fereer calf  is a Fresh Air-and he looks like a rodeo drive albeit thicker with tremendous grow-But from seems like a growing  new perspective - he is right there O0
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 06:52:10 AM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline BroncoFan

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Re: Breeding heifers.
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2020, 09:46:40 PM »
I agree about taking away some mass and making a sounder steer. We just think we can't breed for flatter heifers than this one that has too much shape and bone. Also not feminine enough.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 03:22:38 PM by BroncoFan »

Offline WinterSpringsFarm

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Re: Breeding heifers.
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2020, 05:15:24 AM »
Right now they have to be tremendously flat shouldered, freaky necked and clean chested, but have some width through the chest floor, top, and hip.  Be deep sided, open ribbed, have ample bone size that goes all the way to the foot, and be "squishy" footed.

I like them with some power and shape, but not to the extreme that it sacrifices femininity, and I also don't like them dairy cow frail either.  I agree with whats been said already though, if they are making big time show steers, they aren't likely to be making good heifers.

Offline Larissa

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Re: Breeding heifers.
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2020, 08:25:06 AM »
BroncoFan I agree with you. In Western Canada as a rule we generally select females with a little extra natural muscle shape and power because frail cattle dont do well in our environment. I realize that XBAR disagrees with that and thats fine but as the environment changes so does the selection criteria. A very successful Hereford breeder once told me that they purposely breed for cattle with a little throat because those tight necked ones dont work where they are and I completely agree.

If the heifer you posted is an example of what youre showing Id say youre doing something right. Id take her over a frail boned, freaky necked, flat made heifer any day- both in the ring and the pasture.

 

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