Breeding recommendations for my shorthorn cows.

Dew · Feb 29, 2020

I recently bought a few shorthorn cows from a dispersal sale and I'm looking for some help figuring out who to AI them to. Knowing what kind of cattle that I want to get out of them is the first step, so I think I'd like to see what you guys think about that too.
So here goes:
1. What kind of cattle would _you_ want to get out of these cows?
2. Who who you recommend that I use on them to get there?

I only have one other request: Please only recommend semen that you know can be procured. If I can't find it ... I won't get very far.
Thank you very much.

attached: 2 images (3 cows)... photos from their original sale (they are a bit older now)

Doc · Feb 29, 2020

I didn't look up their numbers to see if they have been tested or not, but they all have a potential for being a carrier of either DS or TH or both. With that being said, I would make sure I bred them to something clean.
They are all out of good cow families and could produce you some show heifers that will become good cows. For me the one that I like the best is the Sable.
If you didn't mind spending the money then I would breed them to Evolution ($100/straw). If not, then a Hot Commodity son.
Another bull that I really liked at NAILE was Millbrook Fireball that Jason Newcom bought and is selling semen on. ($50/straw).
Also, nice group of cows and welcome to Steerplanet.

mark tenenbaum · Feb 29, 2020

Evolution would be a good one but there are pretty big BW cattle on his dams side-Hot commodity himself is a great bull - The other bull (Fireball) I would not GO NEAR until I saw bonified calving reports I personally wouldnt risk Waco and the other ones in his background on anything-Your females have very good genetics but hard calving on some of the dams sides. DJS Outsider is quickly becoming one of the most widely used Shorthorn bulls there is on a lot of different cattle He comes from Mckees top cow families-Cherry and Annadell-along with Arsulu Meg-a cow which created a dynasty of functional cattle.Charisma (Outsiders sire) is one of the most preponent Shorthorn sires of high end Shorthorns there is-look at the national show winners that dont come from Sullivan or Cates -and a CLOSED BULL-So there havent been hundreds of progeny So in all cases but one Outsider is a really good outcross to yours He basically is a good sized Mav Charismax Proud Jazz an-Annadell female who was sired by a full sib to the national champ Cherry -His numbers and calving are good-the color is good the calves are very stout and are winning major shows. Semen is available at all the major distributors including Laughtner who recently bought him There are a couple of his calves pictured towards the end of the Denver Bulls Thread on here-a steer calf that sold a few months ago for $17000-a heifer (and NOT THE TOP FLUSHMATE of her bros and sisters) $8500 In 2019 there were a good many big sellers-with a short Plus selling privately close to $30000 Outsider will sire very stout thick calves THAT GROW on yours. They will be saleable based upon type alone-along with very good pedigrees on both sides O0 https://mattlautnercattle.com/djs-the-outsider-making-steers-heifers-that-win-makingshorthornsgreatagain/

matt999 · Feb 29, 2020

I would breed them to either Hill Haven Firestorm 28C or his Son Millbrook Fireball 23F can’t go wrong either way. Backed by the best cow families in Canada and there producing sound functional cattle that are winning in the show ring and producing as mature females. Both sexes have been awesome here out of both bulls with no calving issues.

Doc · Feb 29, 2020

That's what is good about a free world. Everyone has different opinions and can speak them.
As far as Evolution on being scared of BWT's because of some cows in his pedigree, I've not personally heard of anyone having issues with BWT's. I know that I sure haven't.
As far as Fireball goes, on mature cows I wouldn't be scared of using him. And in my opinion he should have won NAILE this past fall.
On Outsider, I wouldn't use him on these cows unless they have been tested DSF with him being a DS carrier. I think there is a lot of other good options out there without taking a chance on using a carrier.

mark tenenbaum · Feb 29, 2020

People like Matt in California, OHLDES CAL POLY etc and everybody before they knew about it have linebred proud jazz FOR YEARS or bred to DS cattle and never seen a DS calf-In fact Ive never seen one. So it does not seem to be the next plague AJ had so much fun with. Unless a DS with PHA animal is bred to a DS animal Even a DS Homozygous bred to DS rarely has produced cripples according to a breeder I know who bred that way Maybe the clearest definition in academic-understandable terms was made by X BAR-I just dont remember the thread now-Not saying its foolproof just extremely low probability- BUT I AM SAYING I KNOW A LITTLE ABOUT THE BWS OF THE BREEDING ON FIRESTORM-AND ESPECIALLY WACO I wish there were a bull that looked as good as Firestorm I could use-but even my below 0 bw Jazz out of a .05 Bw impact Shaker g daughter going back another 26 years to Deertrail countess in (3) 0 BW generations would not be predictable enough for that pedigree-I HAVE DEALT WITH A NUMBER OF TRAINWRECKS and admit to every ONE-And I know a good bit from observing these cattle about every animal listed there as younger breds.I used and produced some very big bulls in the day and those BWS just dont go away in one generation. Thats genetics overall though not "genetic dirt per se" I always seem to address that because nobody other than X Bar , Brock and JIT seem to relate to cattle that may have been shown but are safe for non show ring people or commercial people to use Stecks recent breeding comes from Steck Mckees and Vogels for the most part and stand at the very top of the breed with the same tired worn out overrated AND NOT VERY WELL DOCUMENTED myrtal beau Solution ET- ALS JMO-there need to be some good REAL outcross genetics or at least 75% new on the going on 20 plus years pedigrees Steck had a sale of some of these cattle where he just ran them from the field into a yard mud and all-They are functional cattle and sold well because they work in normal to tuff conditions what you see is what you get O0

Medium Rare · Feb 29, 2020

If these were my three cows and they still resemble those pictures, the goal would be to get one functional replacement to keep and a fancy heifer to sell.

I'd try Muridale Robert on the 1q cow hoping for the functional replacement female with her modern style. It would be a total outcross mating and should provide a little boost. You can find him in some threads on here where his owner has shared pics of him and his daughters. Just a real world momma maker with the pieces/traits that cow and cow lines probably need. I used a single straw of him and really wish I had used the whole cane and bought more. It is easily the best heifer in the keeper pen with several other AI and ET calves running along side her. I might even flush the cow back to him. I have no idea why more people haven't tried him.

If I was going to use Evolution on one, it would be the 7c cow. Her depth of rib would be the key to me being willing to use him there. For me, Evolution has been easier calving than Hot Commodity. All of his calves have came early as well, which is part of it. It seems like everyone and their brother has used HC, but he's still a well known name option.

I might get crazy and breed 7d to Perfection. He's new and unproven, but looks to have a few pieces of his sire with some changes. I've got what I think is a really nice heifer out of Near Perfect, his sire, and have seen a few others that were nice but the good ones have all been out of a different type of cow than she is. Perfection is just different enough I might try him on her and see if some of his line breeding gets unlocked on her pedigree. In a perfect world this could be the bull of the bunch and hopefully flashy enough to sell as a steer.

I'm fully aware this list looks like someone with ADHD, but trying new and different things is half the fun. <beer>

mark tenenbaum · Feb 29, 2020

You are preaching to the Choir Medium Rare (clapping) O0

Doc · Mar 1, 2020

Mark, I didn't say that you would get a DS calf. I said you could get a DS carrier. Big difference. When you go to market cattle, there is a lot of people that won't buy any animal no matter how good they are if they are a carrier of any genetic condition. That's why I said that he may want to stay away from a DS carrier, especially if his cow is a DSC then he would have the possibility of getting a DSH. Me personally, I don't have a problem using a DSC or even a THC if they are good enough. I'm just crossing my fingers that the resulting calf is clean.
As far as using Fireball, I wouldn't be scared at all. The only one that I might be careful on would be the Sable cow. Once again, use whatever you want and that will work for you and your target customer.
Medium Rare, I personally don't think I would say Evolution is easier calving than his sire. Just look at the volume of calves by HC compared to Evolution. HC is one of my go to bulls for virgin heifers and one that I can get a marketable calf from at the same time. But these are cows not virgin heifers, so I wouldn't be scared at using either Evolution or HC. JMHO.
Back to the original post. He needs to decide what he is trying to accomplish with the resulting calf. There is so many different ways to go.

Medium Rare · Mar 1, 2020

I wish I could say I've had the same experiences as many others claim to have with HC. I've bred him to several heifers based on that reputation and it's bit me multiple times. Each time he didn't remove enough bone and went long on gestation. When I look at those calves, I can see a couple of the bulls back in his pedigree.

I do have a really nice bull calf by him out of a first calf heifer that looks special, and a cane or two of semen left, so it's not that I don't like the bull or plan to use him in the future but I'm done using him on heifers. It must just be my roll of the dice because every heifer breeding question you read on the internet says, "just breed her to HC".

Doc · Mar 1, 2020

Medium rare, I hate to hear that for you. Yea, I don't hesitate to use him on virgin heifers. My 4 go to bulls for virgin heifers are HC, Deception, KOLT Kane Nitro and SLF Red Hot Commodity. Those bulls for me can be used on heifers and still get a marketable calf. There is a lot of heifer bulls out there but a lot will give you a rat at birth and a rat at weaning. I know, I know you want to get that 1st calf on the ground, etc. etc. But with those 4 bulls I personally have not had any issues and still gotten something more than a stockyard calf. JMHO.

mark tenenbaum · Mar 1, 2020

I agree with what you have there Doc-Particularly the heifer bulls-The ones you listed also have some performance-Which I still think that combo narrows down the CE deal field quite a bit-EG :CE Marketable-and Growth along with quality There are a lot of really cool looking show cattle that are lined up with known hard calving genetics-and that comes home to roost. The Red Demand into Reward and sons-Hot Commodity and SOME of his sons dependent upon the dam JMO can fix things that really need it. Once again-Creole and Gizmo like it or not With the Gizmo influence only working on much bigger cattle-along with Proud Jazz- With Outsider being the biggest bull thats popular (going back to Jazz) and gaining a bunch of steam As stated the highest performing bull ive ever used is Fresh Air Though they go through grow with stages where they are unrecognizable and terrible-His dam was certainly the biggest Proud Jazz who ever came about-Couldnt resist a picture-she ended up 1900 pounds mature and could raise 3 calves if you wanted

Doc · Mar 1, 2020

Nice looking heifer Mark

trevorgreycattleco · Mar 1, 2020

mark tenenbaum said:
People like Matt in California, OHLDES CAL POLY etc and everybody before they knew about it have linebred proud jazz FOR YEARS or bred to DS cattle and never seen a DS calf-In fact Ive never seen one. So it does not seem to be the next plague AJ had so much fun with. Unless a DS with PHA animal is bred to a DS animal Even a DS Homozygous bred to DS rarely has produced cripples according to a breeder I know who bred that way Maybe the clearest definition in academic-understandable terms was made by X BAR-I just dont remember the thread now-Not saying its foolproof just extremely low probability- BUT I AM SAYING I KNOW A LITTLE ABOUT THE BWS OF THE BREEDING ON FIRESTORM-AND ESPECIALLY WACO I wish there were a bull that looked as good as Firestorm I could use-but even my below 0 bw Jazz out of a .05 Bw impact Shaker g daughter going back another 26 years to Deertrail countess in (3) 0 BW generations would not be predictable enough for that pedigree-I HAVE DEALT WITH A NUMBER OF TRAINWRECKS and admit to every ONE-And I know a good bit from observing these cattle about every animal listed there as younger breds.I used and produced some very big bulls in the day and those BWS just dont go away in one generation. Thats genetics overall though not "genetic dirt per se" I always seem to address that because nobody other than X Bar , Brock and JIT seem to relate to cattle that may have been shown but are safe for non show ring people or commercial people to use Stecks recent breeding comes from Steck Mckees and Vogels for the most part and stand at the very top of the breed with the same tired worn out overrated AND NOT VERY WELL DOCUMENTED myrtal beau Solution ET- ALS JMO-there need to be some good REAL outcross genetics or at least 75% new on the going on 20 plus years pedigrees Steck had a sale of some of these cattle where he just ran them from the field into a yard mud and all-They are functional cattle and sold well because they work in normal to tuff conditions what you see is what you get O0

Appreciate that you noticed Mark. As far as what bull to use on those cows, how’d the Envied calves turn out from those matings? I love that bull. Bar N Ripper would be a bull to consider on those cows. Way underrated bull. I like the Kane Nitro bull from what I’ve seen on the internet.

mark tenenbaum · Mar 1, 2020

She died young-thats Fresh Airs Dam-Hes also gone and semen is LTD-I can tell you this-by the calves that are currently out there and ones from the last few years-THEY WILL OUTRUN ANY SHORTHORN PERFORMANCE BULL BW TO YEARLING I know of LEVEDALE ET AL DONT HAVE ANYTHING THAT WILL COME CLOSE TO THAT PERFORMANCE-most of which is not documented because he was used extensively by commercial breeders-UNLIKE THE MAJORITY OF SHORTHORN BULLS-And Im just talking weights plain and simple-Not years of bean counting EPDS supplemented by self feeders and massaged indecies We have a now sorta ugly Gangly heifer who was really thick and cool at birth-looked like Fresh Air 88 pounds at birth She is pushing 550 at 5 months-Her 205 will be heavier than ALOT of bulls She was raised by a cow who almost died at 6 months from untreated hoofrot -she subsquently has a big steel rod in her leg-Then she Almost died again with metal-which they never really recover from-And shes smaller than the 1.5 year old Simms with her on drylot The calf is as big as the April and may BIG simm 2019 heifers with her-She was born Sept 26 2019 and will be weaned this week O0

Breeding recommendations for my shorthorn cows.

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