Building a herd

OK, only for those who have been there and done it...how long before you feel like you're where you want to be? Realistically how many years does it take to build a herd?

Rules for my situation...

never paid more than $2000 for a cow/heifer, started with just an Angus base.

Reason I am asking is while I'm making great progress I wonder if I just spent the $5,000 + for a really good donor and prayed she didn't get struck by lightning if I'd be saving years of time and effort????

Well, I've shelled out some cash for my really good ones and let me tell ya.....it's been worth it!  When I was younger I really couldn't afford the really good ones and I tried to breed up what I had.  I would make some improvement but still had an average to a little above average calf.  What justifies it for me is the amount of time that I spend with these cattle.  If I'm going to give what I give I want it to be on something that's got a chance!  I've had really good calf crops now that I got my higher priced cows producing well.

Another reason I've been having better calves is my overall experience.  Just when I think I've made every mistake I surprise myself to know that there's alot more.  I've learned alot from making mistakes.  The biggest one is the choice of sires.  I can't remember the last time I used a show bull.  Almost every calf I've had out of show bulls have been a nightmare.  It really kind of scares me that I ordered Style semen.

The best advice is don't do anything that you can't afford! 

Don't know much about club calves but if you are breeding cattle and selecting for udder quality,grading ability,culling for disposition. If you are co0llecting feedlot you are looking at more like 10-20 years.jmo Again the club calf deal is completely different and I assume et would get you there in a hurry if everything is plugged in correctly. I spose the showring deal could be done in a hurry also.

IMO it will take you 10 years to get where you want to go, or about 3-4 generations or so...  Also depending on the ammount of money you spend, and the numbers of aniamls you choose to deal with...  also about that long to get a good customer base.

Many variables, the main one is money- and the aggession you have towards your goals

I will say it's much easier and quicker and faster to start where you want to be, and reproduce from there, as to start with average cattle and build them up...

Start with the best you can afford to lose.  Always pencil out the worst case scenario. Do not follow fads. Find someone you can REALLY REALLY trust (that might be the hardest one to do!)
Price to me is irrelevant. Buy the best QUALITY you can afford, do not let price confuse the issue.
Buy bred heifers or cows instead of "show babies". 
I have paid big money and none so far has worked out. Nothing great like they should be.

If you do things correctly, I would say you could be where you want to be in 3-4 years. Be prepared to lose whatever you invest. ( Ipersonally would have a hard time spending $5,000+ on a critter, due to the fact, most of the time you are paying at least $2500 for HYPE.

Wish you well.

The problem is setting the right goals so that when you get there you don't find out it's not as great as what you thought many years ago.

That and accepting that you'll never really "get there".  You're always going to want better, and that's ok.  Makes life worth living.

I think if your goal is to make one great one, you probably need to spend the money and get the outlier.  If you want a group of consistent, solid, good ones- then buy a group of half sisters from a breeder, mate and cull, mate and cull, mate and cull.

Buying high priced cattle isn't always a guarantee that you will sell high priced cattle.  A lot of cattle that bring top dollar also come with the reputation of the breeder.  A calf that (insert name of respected breeder here) may be able to sell for $5000 you and I may not be able to sell for $2500.  Over the years I have bought cattle in the $5000 plus range but usually prefer to stay around $1500 to $2000.  The thing about high price cattle is they have to have a great one in order to be profitable, if you buy good genetics and good quality cattle for $1500 to $2000 and never have anything other than a sale barn calf you can still hold your money togeather.

Mike

I was once told that it is cheaper and easier to buy your herd than to build your herd.

I feel that if you are were you want to be then you need to set higher goals. I am never satisfied with were I am and always want to improve. For example, the cow might look perfect, but I want her next generation to have a better udder, or feet, or bulls with bigger testicles ect. I am never content, always want to improve. Easier breeding, smaller BW, higher WW, 100% choice, no YG 3's.  

Oh ya and more HAIR!! O0 <rock>

It used to be that the average life span of a purebred herd was around 7 years. I assume it is around the same. I think that this is the length of a 4-h herd in alot of cases. The kids grow up or what ever. I think other herds burn out....out spend themselves....or whatever. I have seen alot of times people come in make it clear they have money to spend and someone finds a place to spend money for them. I always thought you should never buy cattle from a good merchandizer cause they are just that. They get 5,000 or 500 dollars more than what the heifer should bring. Usually the best buys are when you have been around a few years and you will find a soft sale or under priced cattle or whatever. Alot of horn breeders stumbled onto the Rocker brothers cattle. Then it was the Lauer cows. People bought Lauer cows and had super calves out of these females. Keith had a breeding program and these cows were under appreciated and overlooked. Thats why I hate to see fancy pictures and videos and whatever. The cattle are being highly merchandised and will probably bring more than what they are worth. It always seems like to me a new breeder will jump into the deal buy a bunch of over promoted cattle then 6 years later they will be gone. jmo

If you can afford buying a donor, flushing, storing embryos, and implanting them Id say go for it.

ET can help put a bunch

FutureBreeder said:

ET can help put a bunch

Click to expand...

Or it can make you go broke!  The thing with ET calves is the number that you get may be more than you can market. Marketing is key when dealing with embryo transplant.

Good point.

Its make or break.

I once heard Teddy Gentry say that his E T program made a millionaire out of him, and then he said "I used to be a multimillionaire" RW

At least for me, I learn from mistakes and study of others' success.  I firmly believe that, whatever your business, you must establish a plan and then work towards putting the pieces in place.  IMO, you should first decide on your plan, purpose, and and goals.  Do you want to sell club calves, seed-stock, feedlot, or something else.  How many cattle can you accommodate from a resources and time perspective? 

Unless you are moving towards a large operation I would buy fewer and higher quality stock.

1) Be cautious when buying at auctions or private treaty from people you do not know.  Take someone with you. 2) You will way, way, way, way, over-pay for open heifers at most sales - spend your money on good bred younger to middle age cows - proven cows - then show & keep your own best heifers. 3) Sell your calves at a good price to build a customer base, and 4) if you primarily want to show calves, and do not LOVE to work your own cattle at all hours, then save the trouble and buy your show calves.

And,  in my estimation, $5,000 is a bargain for a truly high quality "donor" cow that is short of 10 years old - mighty hard to find that one.

It is easy to go out and spend big money and cattle but it can be a lot harder to make them pay for themselves.

Similar to what Showheifer said if you can not afford to lose the money you better not spend it in the first place and sometimes the best and cheapest thing in the long run that could happen would be for that expensive one to get hit by lightning.   What I mean by this is a lot of times when someone pays a lot for one they think it has to be good and keep making excuses for it if it is not producing instead of cutting their losses and getting rid of it.  This can especially be a problem with bulls where someone buys an expensive one and keeps using him even when the calves don't turn out because they either can not afford to replace him or will not accept that they made a mistake.  I have a friend who is one of the very top breeders in his breed in Canada and he is not afraid to spend lots for a bull ($40,000 plus in some cases) but he has had more than one that only produced one calf crop because it just did not produce to his expectations.  In my opinion his willingness to do this has been a major factor in his long term continued success.  Trust me it is not easy to admit you made a mistake and get rid of an expensive animal but all too often it is necessary.

Too many people are flushing cows that should not be flushed. If I had a penny for every "open and ready to flush" statement that are in sale catalogs now I would be retired.  I was laughing the other day looking at a catalog. Not one single open or late bred cow due to "open ready to flush," or "held open to flush" or "calved late due to flushing".....
Just like buying a baby heifer for 5000 then a bred heifer or cow bring 2000. Makes no sense except that people love to buy "hope".

Again I stress, if you can not afford to lose every penny you invest in flushing/freezing/receps/ etc, then do not do it. 

Flush to preserve a bloodline. Do not flush to get a champion.

No one has mentioned this yet, but I would suggest you build your own herd versus buying it.  1- it makes you appreciate it more. 2 - makes you realize how much work it is. 3 - you get the self satisfaction of doing it yourself and winning, versus just holding the halter of an animal that is the result of someone's vision.

Good Luck

To many breeders think that if they spend big money, they will sell for big money. In most cases, it doesn't work this way. There are many other factors involved in the price you will receive for the animals you produce, one of them being the owners personality. My grandfather started our herd in 1903. He had a lot of sayings, and one I used to hear him say was that " people buy cattle from people they like". I believe there is truth to this statement. More and more, customer service is also important. I have seen people sell an animal at a sale, and even take the halter off it and leave it tied in the stall with a make shift neck rope made of twine. Talk about setting the stage for a great relationship with a buyer!

I would agree that if you are serious about this business, you will never be totally  satisfied with the quality of your herd. You should constantly move closer to your goal all the time, but the goal may change over time. I would suggest that you should know what you want before you start, and be willing to look around before you jump in with both feet. In my case, I have found that the price you pay has little to do with how they produce. I have several donor females that I was able to purchase privately, for $3000 or less. I have one donor who I purchased for $2000 who has just passed $100,000 in sales of progeny, embryos and flushes.We have sold embryos from her to 6 countries now.  I have a donor that cost me $6200 in a dispersal that I sold the embryos from her first flush for over $12,000 and her first calf for $5000. In her case, I had more luck than anything, as she turned out to be an exceptional embryo producer, as she produced 162 grade 1 embryos in 5 flushes and then settled 12 days after the last flush. She just calved yesterday with a  beautiful heifer calf, so we will be setting her up to flush again in a couple months.

I would say that this female at $6200 is probably the most I have ever paid for a female.  When I was buying cattle for our feedlot an old very successful order buyer gave me this advice " you will make more money buying cattle than you ever will selling cattle". He also said "when the sale prices get too hot it is time to go home. There will be another day to buy that will be better for you."  Another thing he told me was " in any sale, there are always at least two bargains. You have to be smart enough to know which ones they are, and occasionally the biggest bargain is the high seller". I think this man had a lot of foresight and knowledge, and I think what he told me holds true in the breeding end of the business as well.

I would also say that once you start establishing your herd, you have to be willing to spend the appropriate amounts on promoting your herd. I think this is a key to the road to success. I am not just talking about print advertising, but get a good camera and use it. Spend the time to get your own website and promote it. Constantly take pictures and try to get better ones than you had previously. I am not a great photographer but I have been lucky enough to get a few excellent pictures of some of my cows and herd sires. Nobody but me, knows how many hundreds of pictures I have taken to get these few shots. A good picture will sell more dollars of offspring and embryos than any other factor I know of. Most of my embryos sell to people who have never seen the donors in person. Each year, I sell many embryos to people I have never met, who have never seen any of our cattle. A few months ago, I was asked what was the most important piece of machinery on my farm. After thinking about this for a few seconds, I decided that my computer had to be the most important thing I owned. Visibility and marketing are keys to any success. Most people are pretty good at production skills ( ie: feeding, fluffing, fitting, etc) but rather poor at marketing skills. I don't think marketing is something that comes easily to most, but it is something that has to be worked at. Don't be afraid to learn from your mistakes... and other people's mistakes. There is a saying that says " a smart man learns from other people's mistakes.... a fool only learns from his own."

Personally, I would rather spend money on my herd bulls than on any female... but that is just me. A good herd bull will influence your herd for most of our lifetime in the business. Only an occasional female will do the same. Be confident in your herd bulls, but be careful you don't get barn blind. There is a very fine line between the two. A few years ago, a friend and I went to a sale in the US. My friend was there to possibly buy a bull calf that was selling. He ended up buying the calf, but in  heat of the moment, he paid almost twice as much as he had planned on spending. As we traveled home, I listened to him whine and moan about how stupid he was for spending this amount. After an hour of listening to this non stop abuse he was putting on himself for his stupidity, I stopped him and said " If you go home with that attitude, you will do nothing but lose money on this bull. The fact is that you bought him, and that cannot be changed. That is now history. From this point in time, you have to tell people that you got a bargain and you are super pleased with your purchase"  He listened to what I said and he finally said that I was right. This bull probably made him as much money as any bull he had owned previously.

There is lots to learn in this business, and the day you think you know everything is the day you better be booking your dispersal sale. You should never reach a point where you are incapable of learning from others, and afraid to learn from your mistakes. You will make mistakes,... everyone does. Correct them and move on.

I have probably made more mistakes than the average person in this business, and I certainly don't have all the answers. I really believe that timing is very important in this business, so try to watch which way the trends are in the business. Most people follow trends and are always producing their own cattle on the tail end of the current trend. The breed leaders are always on the front end of the trends, or making a new one. Also, know your market. By this, I mean that if club calves are your goal, use club calf genetics. If raising bulls for commercial ranchers is your goal, you will probably want to use some different genetics.

This is an excellent topic... and one that many chapters could be wrote.

Excellent posts Show Heifer and justintimer - right on target - I doubt that any of us have the ideal cow herd that we desire but we continue to strive for it - makes getting up every day worthwhile - most of us do other things to support our cattle passion but it is the satisfaction of seeing what we have developed over the years that brings us much joy.  Do what you can afford and develop patience with your vision of what you want your herd to be.  Don't get sucked in by the marketing of someone else selling you what they don't want.  Do your homework and go from there.  Develop the females, use the best bull you can afford and/or semen, and you are nine months away from another step forward.  You must think of it as a multi-year plan.

There have been alot of good points brought up here!  I'm not opposed to spending money for what I feel is going to improve my herd.  What I do make sure I do is really investigate the cow families.  Every one of my donor cows is out of a donor from someone else's herd that has had alot of success and isn't just a one hit wonder.  Consistency is genetic and I feel that this is what makes some cow families great!

So far all of my donors except one(tanked up and croaked..thank god for insurance) has paid for herself and am now in the black with them.  I am adding one donor after her show career and making up for her cost will take a little bit of time.  I thought that she was the bargain of the sale....too bad she was the second high seller.  I don't usually drop money like this but I thought that her potential cow power could really really improve my operation.  I don't have a problem with buying show heifers.  In fact, doing so has really allowed me to market my calves and make contacts and friendships that I deem necessary.

I've done this cattle deal two different ways.  Before I went to college I had a herd of average angus cows with a few nice ones.  I tried breeding up but nothing seemed to click for me.  It really didn't help that every cool add of the next great show bull always grabbed my attention.  I was 15 and was making all of my own decisions with nobody to go to for guidance.  This time around I really make an effort to see as many cattle as possible.  I have friends who see more cattle than I could ever see they tell me of the nice sire groups that they see and what they think works with what.  Talk to people that will treat you with respect and can trust(sometimes this is hard), there are people in this business that do like to see their customers succeed and don't just say it on their sale catalog.