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Offline neocattleman

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Bulls siring larger frames
« on: April 18, 2020, 06:56:58 PM »
I'm looking for ai bulls preferably simmental, Maine, or possibly Shorthorn but open to other breeds to breed some mature cows to that consistently throw frame score 6-8 calves and can help increase my herds mature size and ADG. I feel like I have gone slightly away from the frame score and size I want/need over the past few years.

Offline Doc

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2020, 07:11:28 PM »
Are you looking for bulls that will sire calves bigger than 6 to 8 frame ?
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong
enough to take everything you have.   -- Thomas Jefferson

Offline neocattleman

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2020, 12:15:57 AM »
No I'm looking for bulls that can help me make calves that fall into that 6-8 frame range. most of my cows are about 5 frame and are throwing 5 frames. So the bull would need to upsize the calves. I realize now my wording may have been confusing
« Last Edit: April 19, 2020, 12:17:21 AM by neocattleman »

Offline beebe

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2020, 09:17:07 AM »
Just curious as to why you want calves with that frame size.  I am trying to get to a 4 frame score.  We don't all have to be alike but what advantage do you think you get from that frame score?

Offline Dale

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2020, 09:18:48 AM »
Sutherland Titleist 269 ET *x

http://sutherlandshorthorns.com/semen.html


Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2020, 04:57:00 PM »
THE HIGHEST performing bull and the best BWS  I have ever used is Fresh Air-A GFS Creole Son raised by Jim Compton-he is a recent bull and has sired some real good ones out of mostly x bred and other breeds-Two or three purebred Daughters have won the Badger Show in wisconsin and stood up at the National Jr Show and state level A BREED LOOKING Purebred steer was recently  reserve at Badger and Champion at the iowa beef expo We have a Sept 26 2019 Daughter from a very moderate cow thats is as tall as some of the March April 2019 long yearlings who WILL SHOW once the grow levels out I have a little semen on Fresh Air-so does Compton-Hes the hiest BW to Weaning etc spread ive ever seen-AND Ive used alot of big ones-Deertrail Sagebrush, Navigator, T Bone, Mad Max, Deertrail Awesome etc--Millbrook Ransom 2975 is the Original frame maker non dairy dude-and not all udders were bad-That"s a cliche-He was Af Warriors grandsire and most like a Cunia I have semen and a small amount on Millbrooke Ransom  G-9 WHO PROBABLY WAS NOT 2975s sire and also thought to have maine in him Deertrail Goliath was huge but also actually made some very good looking and not always big cattle-Byland Bud Lights dam was by him-She was very moderate and wide as a barn JJ SL Tumbleweed was another-won alot of shows in the mid 90s He sire was  by Warrier Warrior bred to the original full Irish Kimillhill cow so a double kimillhill with 2975 on top then again on the bottom-AF Prudential on a 2975 cow on the bottom-He was real good looking for the times-have semen O0
« Last Edit: April 19, 2020, 05:43:45 PM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline kiblercattle

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2020, 07:39:26 PM »
Just curious as to why you want calves with that frame size.  I am trying to get to a 4 frame score.  We don't all have to be alike but what advantage do you think you get from that frame score?


I cant speaker for the original poster but we are kinda going that way too. Maybe not 7+ frame but definitely bigger and longer than acreage. The people who feed our cattle want to hang as many pounds on a carcass as they can and these 5 frames bull that dont have any length dont get it done. Now I dont want my cows to get to big but if we can keep our cow weight to weaning weight ratio in the mid 40 percent and they breed back in our environment we ll take it.

Offline Doc

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2020, 08:28:16 PM »
Just curious as to why you want calves with that frame size.  I am trying to get to a 4 frame score.  We don't all have to be alike but what advantage do you think you get from that frame score?


I cant speaker for the original poster but we are kinda going that way too. Maybe not 7+ frame but definitely bigger and longer than acreage. The people who feed our cattle want to hang as many pounds on a carcass as they can and these 5 frames bull that dont have any length dont get it done. Now I dont want my cows to get to big but if we can keep our cow weight to weaning weight ratio in the mid 40 percent and they breed back in our environment we ll take it.

 I'm right there with you. I was looking for a bull this spring. While looking at JSF, Byland, PVF I just couldn't bring myself to bid on bulls that are 3 to 5 frame. Obviously they have people that did, but they just don't work for me. Once again that's why everyone produces and raises what works for them, their environment and their customers.
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong
enough to take everything you have.   -- Thomas Jefferson

Offline beebe

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2020, 11:06:40 PM »
Thanks for the reply.  I like cattle that weigh heavy too I just don't think I need long legs to do that.  I used to have a bull that was a frame score 4 that weighed a ton.  I love his daughters.  I finish my own cattle on grass so maybe that takes a different phenotype, but I still think it is about length times width times depth that makes pounds and to me big is pounds not inches.  Legs don't weigh that much, but you are right we get to choose what we want to raise.  I am looking for a frame score 4 cow that weighs 1250 and weans half her weight or more.

Offline Lucky_P

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2020, 08:32:23 AM »
Waukaru Gold Card 5042 and W. Patent 8161 made some big ol' cows, out of 3/4AN-1/4 SM dams; the Gold Cards were probably the biggest cows we ever raised. Steers... IDK, as they all sold as weaned calves.

Almost all the Simmental sires we used in the past 10 years or so moderated mature cow size, compared to almost all the Angus sires we used in the previous 10 years, which made some of the biggest cows I'd had in 30 years of production.

Offline Mtnman

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2020, 09:25:26 AM »
Interesting I was just reading about cattle size in history from the University of Michigan, and their timeline of cattle is pretty cool. Obviously the British breed cattle from the early 1700's &1800's were as much ox as beef cattle, but it wasn't uncommon for Angus, Hereford or Shorthorn bulls to weigh in excess of 2500 pounds. One Hereford bull in 1836 weighed 3900+. Then following along to the 1950's cattle that were frame -1 and the problems that were had with dwarfism. Then back to the 80's with frame 10+ cattle and now we have swung back to smaller cattle.

We do breed our cattle to what we like in our own operations and environment. I personally like bigger cattle a frame 6+ cow is ideal for what we do. It takes years/generations to breed your cows larger but you can make them smaller in one breeding.  How small is to small?  How big of a roll does the packers play in cattle size? The commercial cattlemen that I sell bulls to are more concerned about getting the most dollars out of their calf crop then what happens in the showring, my customers live and run their cattle in extreme environments from desert to above timberline at 12,000 feet.

Offline Medium Rare

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2020, 09:45:33 AM »
Marquis 127x and Tradition 106t have both left the frame in them for me. Patent 8161 has put some frame on a few weaned calves for me, but I didn't dare keep any of them to know just how big they were going to get. I assume Crooked Post Stockman would at least leave the frame in a cow if not add to most, but I have yet to try him.

There's several bulls on the show side that can do the same if that's your goal, but several of them have a few issues to work around.

Offline beebe

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2020, 06:18:41 PM »
Just curious as to why you want calves with that frame size.  I am trying to get to a 4 frame score.  We don't all have to be alike but what advantage do you think you get from that frame score?


I cant speaker for the original poster but we are kinda going that way too. Maybe not 7+ frame but definitely bigger and longer than acreage. The people who feed our cattle want to hang as many pounds on a carcass as they can and these 5 frames bull that dont have any length dont get it done. Now I dont want my cows to get to big but if we can keep our cow weight to weaning weight ratio in the mid 40 percent and they breed back in our environment we ll take it.

 I'm right there with you. I was looking for a bull this spring. While looking at JSF, Byland, PVF I just couldn't bring myself to bid on bulls that are 3 to 5 frame. Obviously they have people that did, but they just don't work for me. Once again that's why everyone produces and raises what works for them, their environment and their customers.

Where did you find frame 3 and 4 cattle?  I am not doubting you I would like to know where to find them.

Offline CRS

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2020, 08:05:03 PM »
I'd probably go back a little bit to some more "old school" bulls like Meyer, Maximus, Whiplash, but with the bigger frame size usually you give up some calving ease.  There are some good older Maine bulls like Dirty Harry, Strictly Business and Bad Medicine that'll add from, but suck the guts out of a tubey one.  There is always the old Chi bulls like Total Play, Full Throttle and Full Flush that'll put some air under them, but still make them big hipped and powerful. 
Life is tuff, but it is tougher when you are stupid.

Offline Medium Rare

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Re: Bulls siring larger frames
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2020, 08:37:10 PM »
Where did you find frame 3 and 4 cattle?  I am not doubting you I would like to know where to find them.

Have you tried Cherry Fillet? If you already have fairly moderate cows he will definitely keep the legs from getting too long on them.

There was multiple bulls in the 4s and at least 8-10 below a 4.5 in the PVF and Byland sale.

 

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