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Offline bolt

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Clone's
« on: June 24, 2009, 08:01:49 PM »
OK I'm new to all of this but i just had something on my mind..  I'm not trying to stir anyone up on this just didn't know if any one felt the same.  I am having a hard time with one thing clones.  I know some people use them and have good luck and that is great for them.   I have to sit and think is this ever going to catch up with us.   I don't know.  It has been a topic for quit a few miles in the truck for me and my wife.  We have made our minds up that it is against our morals in life and aren't going to get caught up in it.  I was just curious if anyone felt the same as we do.  I know this is a hot topic all over and i understand what the draw is.  It all comes down to $ and what people want and that's fine i understand completely.  I just don't think it is for us.   I want to thank everyone that is a part of this forum i have learned alot just by reading your posts. 

Offline Zach

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2009, 08:18:21 PM »
using clones is fine by me. unless you want to pay 500 dollars for heatwave
The livestock (show) industry is a tough one- if you've never had anything worth a damn you might as well go on the internet and rundown everybody you can.

Offline Cattledog

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2009, 09:48:51 PM »
Clones in the Angus breed(which I raise) really is not an issue.  You have the a couple clones of some cows but it is really non-existent with the AI bulls out there.  I guess my issue with the use of clones is that you really don't have any genetic improvement.  With that said...genetic improvement is something that needs to be weighed by the person doing the breeding.  Maybe using heatwave clones gives the breeders the kind and type of cattle that they want to produce.   Then you get into the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" methodology.  It's a catch 22...it truly is.
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Offline drl

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2009, 06:03:29 AM »
I will go ahead and use the clones. I believe that the free market will dictate genetic improvement. An example would be Jakes Proud Jazz. He is pretty much a total outcross of shorthorn genetics used for breeding show cattle. He was something new that a few tried and now he is a high selling bull with a couple of sons out on the market now. Those who use line breeding/inbreeding will have things catch up to them as well if not worse than those would use clones.

Offline simtal

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2009, 08:11:06 AM »
you've been around clones your whole life probably don't know it.  identical twins
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Offline herefordfootball

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2009, 09:02:14 AM »
If it's agianst your morals, I would stay away from it. There are a lot of bulls out there that would probaly click just as good with your cows as any Heat Wave clone would, you just have to look around.
Those that quit last, win first.  3F's Family,Faith,Friends.

Offline knabe

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2009, 09:59:01 AM »
you've been around clones your whole life probably don't know it.  identical twins

we should test human twins to see if they are clones and put down the one's that are.  it's so immoral.

Offline GONEWEST

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2009, 02:07:53 PM »
I'd be interested to learn your rational that  using a bull that was conceived by cloning is considered a moral issue at all.

Offline bolt

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2009, 02:47:51 PM »
Well i have tought about what i have said all day driving.   Moral is not the best word i could have used honestly.   My curiousity took a turn for the worse by that word.   Nerves got the best of me.  Not a wize at this at all.  I should have just asked if anyone wouldn't use a bull because of the word clone.   There are several ways or auguments one way or the other.  That is a can of worms that i don't want to open.   I will do better next time on how i say things.  

Offline Show Heifer

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2009, 03:09:49 PM »
Bolt, I kinda understand where your coming from. I will not use a clone. I'll attempt to explain why.

-My goal is to produce superior animals, both physically (nice looking) and genetically (production, performance, defect free). So, if you are building a herd for the future, I feel that each generation should outproduce itself (with very, very few exceptions). So following that thought, a bull should produce a son or daughter that is better than themselves to further that genetic line. It would be stopping genetic progress to use a clone.
-Rationally, I know, in THEORY the clones should be genetically identical to the genetic donor, but I have my doubts. I fear their longevity, disease resistance, etc. (think Dolly the sheep).
I will be very interested to know how long these clones "hang around" and if they have any health issues (if they are actually brought to the publics attention).
-I just do not think it is right.

Those are my personal reasons.
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Offline ROAD WARRIOR

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2009, 03:34:11 PM »
In order to keep on the leading edge of the genetic revolution you have to change/improve your genetics at a constant rate. Most of the clones are of older bulls that have been around long enough in my oppinion to have perpetuated their genes into enough herds that they should be 3 or 4 generations back in the pedigree. I cannot believe that the bulls/clones available today are as good as we will ever get as I have not seen the perfect offspring of any of them. If you are happy with where your herd/genetics are and don't want to improve from where you are, by all means use them. Having been in the cattle business for 30+ years I can remember some bulls that were thought to be absolutely phenominal in their day, however in todays world many of them would be considered average at best. If there is no room for improvement in our genetics today, we had all better hang up our spurs and retire. Personally I think that there is a huge void that is waiting to be filled by the next "great outcross" bull. He will come along - they always have and some one will make a truck load of money off of him. RW
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Offline knabe

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2009, 05:38:32 PM »
you'd think if we'd apply moore's law and be improving these animals at a constant rate that we would have 100 lb filets, preground hamburger, no backfat, consistent marbling and animals that could float instead of walk.

this notion that we know what we are doing is ridiculoous.

there never has been a great outcross bull.  soon as you use him, his utility is gone and you just created a problem.

clones are useful for young bulls that didn't get collected enough or other circumstances.

dolly died for know reasons related to the egg donor due to telomere length and other issues.

i haven't seen a clone i'd use yet.  i would though if i did.

Offline ROAD WARRIOR

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2009, 05:45:36 PM »
Knabe - I would at least like to think that I am improving my herd. Make no mistake about it there have been some decissions made over the years that were more of a set back than an improvement. My point simply stated is this - if you stay in the same place you never progress and in this business if you don't move you get left in the dust. RW
You tell them I'm coming - Tell them I'm coming and I'm bringing Hell with me!

Offline knabe

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2009, 06:17:17 PM »
true enough for you probably.  on the other hand, some people would have been better off staying put, ie move to frame 10.  for me, i would sometimes be satisfied just keeping something.  we are always mesmorized by the one-offs.  notice how hard it is to "improve" with heat wave.  how could we improve him that is going to work with a composite?

Offline justintime

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2009, 06:27:55 PM »
There is a word that I heard in my youth that I seldom here anymore... and that word is prepotent. A sire was considered a prepotent sire if he sired offspring better than he was himself and especially if he sired a son that out bred him. I hardly ever hear of this anymore. I often wonder about this, especially when I think of the literally thousands of offspring some of these popular sires have produced. I would think that, if these sires were true beef industry improvers, that there would be a son or several sons that would be ready to take the sires place as the next great breeding sire. It doesn't happen very often... not in most purebred breeds, nor in the clubby industry as well. If there were more of these sires around, wouldn't it stand to reason that cloning a sire would be really an insignificant issue, as there would be sons of the sire that could take his place... and do at least as good and hopefully better job of siring excellent offspring.

I can think of a few handfuls of sires in several breeds that were the hottest thing going in their time, however, I am left scratching my head to name a son of these bulls that worked as good as the sire did. Of course there are some sons that have done a good job, but I question if they have been as consistent across the board as the sire. It stands to reason that if a sire is used on some of a breeds best females, there should be sons that are even better breeding pieces. This happens occasionally, but it seems to be less than I would think should be the case.

An old time breeder who I learned a lot from when I was starting out in breeding cattle told me that to be successful in this business, you must always seek for improvement in each generation you produce. I see so many people who are satisfied in producing the same thing over and over, and never striving for improvement. Some of these people scratch their heads and wonder why other people's cattle are getting better than the cattle they produce. The " assume" that these other breeders must be cheating and/ or doing something illegal to be producing the cattle they come out with. I hear this all the time. On a recent trip to the US, I heard so many bad stories about some of the top breeders in the breed I raise, I was left to wonder if there was any truth in any of what was said. I am certain much of what I heard was a feeble attempt to bring these top breeders down a few notches so that they would be closer to their level. A mainline breeder has to have thick skin to put up with this nonsense, as it always seems to happen if you have any success.

Back to the issue at hand.... Cloning. I think cloning has a place in the industry, but I am concerned that it too, will become  a misused tool in the industry. I also struggle from time to time with some of the issues surrounding this technology. Personally I see no reason to ever have more than one clone from any animal, and question if it is even required if these animals that are being cloned were actually as good  at breeding as some people seem to think they are. My view is that if they are as good as that, there should be sons available that will be even better. If there isn't I question if these animals are half as good as we think they are.
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