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Offline ROAD WARRIOR

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2009, 06:36:00 PM »
Far too many people do not treat their genetics as a business. How far would a business go if they don't have a plan and/or direction? Granted some are quite satisfied with where they are and will probably never move ahead. The club calf business is truely a beast of it's own, however with the mongrelization of the club calf producing cow herd, ie retaining the heifer mates to the steers that are produced, the next "great" producing bull may not be a composite. Time will tell of course and nowhere else is extreme change brought any faster than in the club calf industry. I remember when bigger was better and now anything above a 52" steer is considered a monster. The business and the calves produced to sustain it will both continue to change, possibly on a few words spoken over a microphone by some highly respected judge. When real structural soundness or some other trait comes into play in the show steer world ( sooner or later it will) there will be a rapid change in the industry. The ONLY constant is change. RW
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Offline Zach

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2009, 07:56:46 PM »
there is no such thing as a clone. take it away knabe....
The livestock (show) industry is a tough one- if you've never had anything worth a damn you might as well go on the internet and rundown everybody you can.

Online knabe

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2009, 08:10:42 PM »
there is no such thing as a clone. take it away knabe....

tee hee.

on another note, why does a show steer need to be sound at all.  they are at the end of their life.  do they walk on the rail?

what if you could have prime marbling, 0.2 backfat, low kph, yield 1 or 2 and it was lame, why should it lose?

perhaps premium cuts will just die out as the premium market shrinks and fat is pointless and show steers will change.

i feel a sea change coming on at some point rather than incrementalism.

Offline simtal

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2009, 08:19:03 PM »
Far too many people do not treat their genetics as a business.

very well put, I myself is a guilty as anyone.


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Online justintime

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2009, 08:23:53 PM »
A show steer should have to be sound simply because he usually has sisters... who hopefully have to live and produce for several more years, as trouble free, as possible.  If you are selecting genetics that generate unsoundness in the steers and you only goal is to get them to 14 months of age without using an excessive amount of painkillers, you are probably also producing sisters to these steers that are cripples as well.
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Offline ROAD WARRIOR

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2009, 09:07:48 PM »
A show steer should have to be sound simply because he usually has sisters... who hopefully have to live and produce for several more years, as trouble free, as possible.  If you are selecting genetics that generate unsoundness in the steers and you only goal is to get them to 14 months of age without using an excessive amount of painkillers, you are probably also producing sisters to these steers that are cripples as well.

Amen! Preach on! RW
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Offline rtmcc

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2009, 10:40:30 PM »
A show steer should have to be sound simply because he usually has sisters... who hopefully have to live and produce for several more years, as trouble free, as possible.  If you are selecting genetics that generate unsoundness in the steers and you only goal is to get them to 14 months of age without using an excessive amount of painkillers, you are probably also producing sisters to these steers that are cripples as well.

This was my thought exactly.  A highly respected cattleman was judging our county fair back in the 80's when we all had the big bad steers.  His exact comment was that these steers need to be sound as  all these steers have sisters somewhere in the world that are expected to produce the next generation .

As far as clones go, I'm not sure were I stand.  I think all great sires should produce their replacement for the next generation.  If an animal has an accident at an early age before he can build up a semen bank but has produces enough off spring to prove his worth it may be cause to clone him.  On the other hand, there are millions of cattle in this world.  There is always a better one out there some were waiting to be discovered and make his mark.  It seams that viewpoints on the cloning issue varies a little between pure bred cattle breeders and the club calf sector. Most club calf bulls  are cloned because they are reproductive nightmares to get to produce semen and keep sound for a few years. 

That does not sound like "cattle breeding" to me.  Just using the shot gun approach  ...  just use the next great thing and throw it at enough cows and you are bound to come up with a good one sooner or later.  Most people in the pure bred business need more predictability than this.  And there genetics customers demand more predictability than this.

Remember,  a GREAT ONE is were you find it.  They are not all at the high profile sales.
 <cowboy>

« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 10:41:52 PM by rtmcc »

Offline Dale

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2009, 10:44:41 PM »
Is the clone's DNA the same age as the donor?  If so, it would be better to clone younger individuals to avoid the diseases of aging such as arthritis, etc.  If a 7 year-old bull is cloned, will the clone, at age 7, be reproductively similar to a 14 year-old due to his ancient DNA?

Offline Zach

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2009, 10:47:30 PM »
i think if you take the dna at age 7. the clone calf will be 7 years aged when born
The livestock (show) industry is a tough one- if you've never had anything worth a damn you might as well go on the internet and rundown everybody you can.

Offline ROAD WARRIOR

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2009, 10:50:45 PM »
Clones are not born the age of the donor, just the same as they are not born weighing 2000lbs. The DNA is the same but the age and other traits influenced by enviroment are different. RW
You tell them I'm coming - Tell them I'm coming and I'm bringing Hell with me!

Offline GONEWEST

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2009, 01:37:54 AM »
JIT,

There is no one on this whole board that I learn more from than you. I really don't feel there are many who have the qualifications or knowledge to give their positions as the right one as do you.  No one states their case as eloquently and unabrasively (not a real word) as you.

That being said. I have some very opposite ideas to the last couple of your posts and I believe my ideas can be substantiated. As far as genetic improvement is concerned you mentioned that term pre-potent. And noted it was a term used a lot years ago but not much today. Also that there should be lots of offspring who are actually better than their sires especially when mated to the best females of their respective  industry but it just doesn't happen that often. Maybe the reason that term isn't used much today is that it was over used and mis-used. In reality, there just aren't many sires that produce bulls who out breed them. They may be able to produce offspring that sure look like they will, but not many  emerge that ever do.

It's because genetics aren't as simple as "like begets like." Striving for improvement is one thing but actually gaining it is an extremely long process. Even according to the examples you give. For me, you got off track there by saying how difficult it is to actually improve a productive animal and then addressing the concerns of smaller, less elite breeders in your breed by implying they were jealous of success and  implying that these "Elite" breeders are making genetic strides by leaps and bounds over others. I am all about the jealousy thing. If you are successful there are those who will do anything possible to be against you in some form or fashion. However, with the specific  people you are referring to, who wield much power in their associations due to the fact that they bring in such a large portion of that associations revenue, maybe they have a legitimate gripe. After all, you just mentioned how difficult it was to make progress and that it just doesn't come around as much as it seems it should.

As far as the clones go, there are many reasons for more than one. First, you have to make several to hope to get one to full term and even past a month old. So if you are lucky enough to do that, there's more than one. Second, like in the case of the Full Flush clones, there are more than one so that they can be used in more than one pasture and breed more cows. That deal was never really about commercial semen production as are the Heat Wave clones. And of course the Heatwave clones are what we are all talking about when we say "clones." The reason there are so many is simply a supply and demand thing. If his progeny didn't do what he was designed to do (win steer shows) better than anything else that is available, there would not be so much demand for the semen. I promise you that those people aren't  cloning them for giggles and grins. They have many reasons, multiple millions of reasons to continue to clone Heat Wave. I think us poor people sometimes have a hard time understanding the size of the economics involved with Heat Wave clones. If the judges quit using Heat Wave progeny to win every show from the National Western to anyone's county fair, there won't be any more Heatwave clones.

One point no one has brought up in this particular instance about genetic improvement is that in the case of Heat Wave, the dynamics of the club calf industry may make it difficult to ever measure improvement on ol' Heat Wave. The big time steer thing is run and controlled so much by a handful of traders and jocks. If they have a big time calf and you go to try to buy it, guess who the sire is gonna be? I guarantee you it'll be a Heat Wave every time. WHY? Because Heat Waves win, because if you are going for a national level steer you are going at it to win not as a kids 4-H project. And you know as well as anyone Heat Waves win so that's what you want to hear him say the sire is. If you're a family that just wants to go to his place and get a steer that won't embarrass you at the county level what is it going to be when you ask? A HEAT WAVE, because you know Heat Waves win national shows, surely one would be competitive at your county fair. We will never know who the real sire of many of these cattle are because they are sold as Heat Waves. There may already be two or three really good sons we don't even know about and never will.

But my absolute pet peeve and what I disagree very strongly on was your comment to what Knabe said about steers not needing to be perfectly sound. I want to puke(admittedly a most eloquent term) every time I hear a judge say "I want him to be as sound as possible because he has heifer mates out in the pasture."  To me that is an extremely weak argument that holds no water on any front.  I am totally with Knabe in that  there should be far more important considerations on a show steer than if he is a little short strided or how pretty he walks in a show ring. If he were in a commercial situation, he would get no more dollars for being able to make it to the feed bunk in an attractive fashion. If he had to be lifted and carried to the feed bunk or was lame and didn't feel like going to the feed bunk is one thing. But as long as he makes it why does he have to look good doing it? Oh yeah, he has sisters.

Well the first reason that makes no sense is because we are judging one animal, the one that is in the ring and he is not a breeding animal. What MIGHT be out in the pasture somewhere should have zero relevance to a steer show. We judge one animal on his own merits on one day. The judge has no business extrapolating a family tree from a terminal animal.

Which brings me to my second and most important point as to why that argument is such a farce. These are animals that are bred to be TERMINAL, bred to be killed before they reproduce. Not bred with the idea in mind to be trouble free for years in the pasture. I don't care if it's the show ring or a commercial situation, if you use these sires that consistently make competitive show steers to sire your calves, they are being chosen for a terminal situation. Not a reproductive situation. They are not designed, intended or have any more business in a reproductive situation than a car does under water. Therefore it makes absolutely no sense that it matters what it's heifer mates look like because they are bred to be killed as well. You may CHOOSE to keep some for replacements but you do so with the knowledge that those animals were not intended for that purpose and there may be consequences to your decision.

If Simmental X Angus cross steers were competitive in the show ring, then there would be a point to consider soundness since that is a viable cross for commercial production. But they aren't and the sires we use to produce show steers are made for that purpose and that purpose only. If you keep replacements from these terminal sires, you get the stuff that may come with them. Everything else equal,  the pretty walking steer should win. But they are bred to grade and yield and look good doing it. Nothing else should be inferred by a judge.

Now if you want to argue that we should be selecting Simmental X Angus steers as the winners and not the Chi-Maine-Shorty combination's that dominate today, then that is a whole different argument that has merit. But by today's standards, the fact that a steer may have some sisters that some one is taking a chance on making into momma cows should have absolutely no relevance to the placing of a steer in today's  show ring.


Offline Show Heifer

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2009, 07:00:23 AM »
Actually RW, some experts will disagree with you. Call up Hawkeye and ask what their opinion is on clones and their age, and then ask them who told them that..... 
You are cloning the cells. If that cell is 10, then that is material that will be cloned.

Quote from farwest:Which brings me to my second and most important point as to why that argument is such a farce. These are animals that are bred to be TERMINAL, bred to be killed before they reproduce. Not bred with the idea in mind to be trouble free for years in the pasture. I don't care if it's the show ring or a commercial situation, if you use these sires that consistently make competitive show steers to sire your calves, they are being chosen for a terminal situation. Not a reproductive situation. They are not designed, intended or have any more business in a reproductive situation than a car does under water. Therefore it makes absolutely no sense that it matters what it's heifer mates look like because they are bred to be killed as well. You may CHOOSE to keep some for replacements but you do so with the knowledge that those animals were not intended for that purpose and there may be consequences to your decision.

If that statement were true, why are their "steer bulls" and bulls? If in fact, that statement heatwave would have been burger at 16 months of age. Along with most other "clubbie bulls". All were bred to be steers, and then when knife time came, they were "just too good" to cut, therefore they are a bull that should, by your own accounts, be a steer because that is what it was bred for.
A show should be an exhibition of the best. If the "best" steer is one that has trouble walking or has toes pointing four different directions, then that is pathetic.

Clone from farwest:  First, you have to make several to hope to get one to full term and even past a month old.

WHihc agrees with my arguement that their isn't something quite right with this process. Too many die too early for "unknown reasons."



ALl that being said, do what you think is best for your herd. That is the name of the game, your cow herd, your money, your choice. As long as all the cloned offspring of the calves are being marketed for what they are CLONED progeny and not the original, then by all means, knock yourself out and go for it.
You had tthe right not display your lack of command of the english language. Too bad you have chosen not to. - Brit, senior student

Offline doublestuff

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2009, 07:14:59 AM »
GoneWest you are right on as far as im concerned. Couldnt agree more when it comes to the soundness issue.

Offline doublestuff

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2009, 07:17:50 AM »
Only time will tell but I think Monopoly could just be the one son to overthrow the king and actually be better than his sire.

Offline GONEWEST

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Re: Clone's
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2009, 07:54:48 AM »
Show heifer,

Quote from farwest  It's GONE west, but that's ok.

If that statement were true, why are their "steer bulls" and bulls? If in fact, that statement heatwave would have been burger at 16 months of age. Along with most other "clubbie bulls". All were bred to be steers, and then when knife time came, they were "just too good" to cut, therefore they are a bull that should, by your own accounts, be a steer because that is what it was bred for.


Uhhh..........WHAT??? Are you going to argue with me that these cattle aren't bred to be terminal?

 

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