Clubby Angus.

You know, at first I was very disappointed in the fact that some Angus are now referred to  as "clubby" type Angus. Northern Improvement has been mentioned many times, and although he looked like a real good bull, I figured he'd probably have lousy numbers, be extremely inefficient, or simply not be functional enough to sire "real world" cattle. Imagine my surprise when I got on the Express Ranches site and started looking at some of the awesome offspring he had sired. Then, I looked at the bull's EPDs. I am now seriously considering using him on my heifers as he is a -.6BW and a +11 CED. Even more impressive is the +14 CEM which is really where it counts. His EPDs indicate he will add barely any height and has an impressive scrotal EPD. Of course, having PCC cattle, $EN and moderate milk and growth are important. He is a little big on the milk side, but plenty growthy enough for me. The +7.54 $EN made me seriously think he might not be a bad bull to try out. Any of you all have any beefs with this bull? I think I wouldn't mind having some cattle like him.

Would you rather have the Angus breed referred to as unversatile?  Numbers are rather played out, and I think that Angus, as a breed, have put way too much focus on them.  Don't get me wrong, there are some GREAT Angus cattle, but I'm not a fan of the "number" cattle. 

Let me give you my experience with epds on cattle. First Heifer : BW 8.9 (ya big) CE -2.4    Bull she was bred to: BW: 4.4  CE -1.2  This mating(hereford) yielded an 82lb calf unassisted out of a first calf heifer.


                                                                                  Second Heifer: BW 4.5 CE 2.1 (ya not bad)  Bull she was bred to: BW -1.7  CE 7.1 This mating (also hereford) yielded a 90lb calf out of a first calf heifer that had the calf unassisted but it didnt come as easy as the first mating.

Now I'm not saying epds are bad or always wrong but this will probaly be the last time epds are the deciding factor in what my heifers are bred to. Good Luck!

Also if you think this is just some story I made up pm me and I will give you the names and reg numbers of the cattle and you can look them up on hereford.org along with the numbers of their progeny.

I have some NI daughters and grandaughters and they are some of my best cows.  I have no complaints about the females of his lineage that I own.  To be honest....I like NI better than Lutton or Lut.  It is kind of concerning to me that I haven't really liked any of his sons, but I love his females!

BTW....some of my cattle have really good numbers and I think they are pretty good phenotypically.  Just because an animal has good numbers doesn't meen they are bad.  I realize that some of the number lines out there that are pretty tough to look at but I think they give the others a bad rap.  

Cattledog-  Let me rephrase what I meant.  I wouldn't select so hard on EPD's like some folks do.  There are lots of good cattle with the numbers to back them up. I think the numbers should back the cattle up, not the other way around. 

Olson Family Shorthorns said:

Cattledog-  Let me rephrase what I meant.   I wouldn't select so hard on EPD's like some folks do.  There are lots of good cattle with the numbers to back them up. I think the numbers should back the cattle up, not the other way around. 

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(lol)  I figured you meant that but I just wanted to give you a hard time.  That is exactly my filosophy, and I had a pretty good idea that was yours as well!

My humble opinion...

I think that Cattledog & OFS are both correct... numbers are OK & can even be useful (especially if they aren't manipluated    ), but the problem is that way too many people put too much emphasis on numbers, even genestar numbers, and not enough emphasis on the cattle themselves & that is not a good thing.  Because of that, EPD's have done more damage to the cattle industry than they have done good, IMHO.    

Based on what little I know, I'm guessing that Northern Improvement will sire a decent amount more frame than a typical Pharo bull, but he's a pretty nice bull for certain applications.  

TJ said:

My humble opinion...

I think that Cattledog & OFS are both correct... numbers are OK & can even be useful (especially if they aren't manipluated    ), but the problem is that way too many people put too much emphasis on numbers, even genestar numbers, and not enough emphasis on the cattle themselves & that is not a good thing.  Because of that, EPD's have done more damage to the cattle industry than they have done good, IMHO.    

Based on what little I know, I'm guessing that Northern Improvement will sire a decent amount more frame than a typical Pharo bull, but he's a pretty nice bull for certain applications.

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Gee, don't you all understand that chasing numbers is what the Angus breed is all about!!?!?!  Actually, we have been more concerned with how Angus chased growth EPDs and, as cattledog said, not much emphasis was placed on phenotype. EPDs are a useful tool, but I am happy if an animal has a "balanced" performance profile. Not the biggest or maybe not even the best, but good enough to be acceptable. I of course know that any one number can be chased too much, and I try to refrain from that. A +35 $EN or +65 $B looks temping as can a +15 CED or -5 BW. You can go too far in any one direction. I've been all over the board, as you know, but I decided just producing good looking cattle that can give you adequate performance is the way to go. It's really good to hear NI makes good cows. As a wise old rancher once told me, "Breed for cows, and the bulls will take care of themselves." Although that statement has been widely argued, I have yet to see any plausible problems caused with it. Of course, I haven't been around too long either. Finally, TJ, I would expect there are a heck of a lot of bulls out there that would sire more frame than the average PCC bull. For me, frame 5 is just about ideal. Not to big for PCC and not too small for everyone else. It seems sticking to the middle of the road keeps you out of the ditch.

one mans ditch may be another mans furrow. ...if you have a successful beef herd for say  18 yrs.....does that mean that all your "numbers" have" improved" in" all areas"... to a certain " pinnacle" ??  should all the "numbers" progressively get  " better"  to be  a successful operation?.....jbarl

From the perspective of being a former big time Angus breeder, I would call him a "show" bull. My dad and grandpa used to do the number chasing for carcass EPDs and it seemed a lot of times it would result in some sorry looking animals. The only time they used bulls like NI, Saugahatchee, Stockman, Famous, and my dad always referred to them as "show" bulls.

LN said:

From the perspective of being a former big time Angus breeder, I would call him a "show" bull. My dad and grandpa used to do the number chasing for carcass EPDs and it seemed a lot of times it would result in some sorry looking animals. The only time they used bulls like NI, Saugahatchee, Stockman, Famous, and my dad always referred to them as "show" bulls.

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So this brings up an interesting point.  If a bull sires cattle that have an exceptional phenotype and someone throws a show halter on them does that make him a show bull?  If so, should that bull be discounted for it?  I think not...especially if his calves turn into productive cows or bulls.  The one disappointment that I did have recently was that the El Capitan bull came back positive for hydro.  People would scream show bull for him but that bull had middle, thickness, bone, and style. I was getting ready to flush one of my best cows to him.  I say this cautiously.....he had pretty good numbers too! 

JbarL said:

should all the "numbers" progressively get  " better"  to be  a successful operation?.....jbarl

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how can numbers get better if the cow is getting smaller?

is there such a thing as herd management epd?

do more inputs equal a negative epd?

MYT Farms said:

Finally, TJ, I would expect there are a heck of a lot of bulls out there that would sire more frame than the average PCC bull. For me, frame 5 is just about ideal. Not to big for PCC and not too small for everyone else. It seems sticking to the middle of the road keeps you out of the ditch.

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I don't know for a fact, but I'm guessing that Northern Improvement is bigger than a 5.   

BTW, a frame 5 wasn't middle of the road 40+ years ago.  So does that mean that the majority of the cattle industry is currently in a ditch?     Irregardless, I'm perfectly content where I am at & I am gaining customers every week, including Angus breeder customers.  And if I'm in a ditch, please, please, please, please don't pull me out!!!!       

knabe said:

JbarL said:

should all the "numbers" progressively get  " better"  to be  a successful operation?.....jbarl

Click to expand...

how can numbers get better if the cow is getting smaller?

is there such a thing as herd management epd?

do more inputs equal a negative epd?

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to me the epds seem like a  p/ l statement....they are always a month behind.....so maybe the  Key word here is " trending" up or down...as far as "management "  goes......birth weights seem to hold a pretty respectible "guage" ....and if the numbers are wrong....they dont get by groups like this.....word o mounth seems to "round off" those figures and make them a little more managable.....but i dont see alot of posts where marbling epds  are seriously contested, and the sire labed "unusable"....personally i think % rank are of more  use to  target a catagory....jbarl

I think numbers alone made for a lot of ugly cattle in the Angus breed, slab-sided and cat-assed was the way one cattleman put it. 

If you can't stand to look at the cattle, to me, numbers aren't very helpful.  There isn't a cow today as functional and pretty as the old Blackbird, Forever Lady and Juanada lines.

NI made some very useful females.  He is a proven calving ease bull that will keep some style and power when used on clubby bred heifers.  They are moderate framed (not small), and milk well with good teat structure.  The structure of his calves have been excellent with the only problems being on really powered up females.  He will not take away any hair (this is a negative for our herd) so the clubby guys like this.  He also does not seem to put a ton of base width or fleshing ability into his cattle.  A lot of this fleshing ability is probably due to his cows milking pretty heavy (a plus in a high input scenario).  Overall a very usefull sire that continues to still see use today which is a testament to his legacy.