Quantcast Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"

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Author Topic: Dr. Bert Moore on "Heritage Shorthorn's Impact On World Cattle Breeds"  (Read 3557 times)

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Thats pretty passe and old hat with DNA having been prevalent for a good while-to the point of being irrelevant to this thread I have been talking about cattle from 30 plus years ago. The dishonest breeder was Harold Hoskins who has been dead for years But there were alot of others with Millbrooke puportedly right up there. Do any of you care to remember Spruce Hill Image and the comments from Charolais Breeders who saw him-or Geat White Hope? Just for grins I may feel like proving a point RE 2975-Im gonna bust a straw of semen on him and see if Cunia, Covino 11 or anybody else shows up.When I first hooked up with the guys from Kansas and Missouri-it was when they had Echodale Topdraft and Exclusives Showgirl (Hoskins -later mother to topdrafts show me) at Louisvile anybody remember what he really looked like-not a whole lot like his pedigree-thats for certain Niether did showgirl who was really sired by flash (Vistas Sentra MA )-THESE ARE JUST MINOR EXAMPLES-I dont think Ed Grathwohl was dishonest at all and in the day he was one of the top breeders on the continent:  his breeding remains  at the forefront of many of the "current shorthorn cattle years after his passing" IF NOTHING ELSE DOES THE MONA LISA COW FAMILY RING A BELL?--If he used a maine-He registered them that way-And alot of people wanted them and the Guiness-Mark 4-Enticer-Marvel and Irish  based cattle he had because they didnt want frail hardoing no thickness ratty dairy cattle.Due to the aforementioned DNA the dishonest breeders today dont worry about the pedigrees anymore-they just call c-section cow killer genetics 0 BW and age their show calves with the mayan calender  O0
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 09:42:42 PM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline oakview

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Some of the allegations on this thread are downright laughable.  Great White Hope?  You've got to be kidding.  I believe the breeder of this calf was Clampitt and Lyon Jerseys of Iowa, Graham Land and Livestock in Minnesota raised the calf.  We saw the check from the Grahams written to Clampitt and Lyon Jerseys for the bred cow, Clayside Cindy 2nd, at the Iowa State Fair.  She was bred to Columbus, the resulting calf was Great White Hope.  Harry Clampitt, along with Harold Hoskins, would not be happy on how their integrity is being questioned.  Too bad they are not here to defend themselves.  There is Great White Hope semen out there.  I would challenge anyone to test a straw and prove that he wasn't sired by Columbus or that he had Charolais in him for that matter.  In all the cattle mentioned in the previous post I see no allegation of Salers blood, which was the original focus of "discussion."  For the third time, I'll be especially specific this time, there is no Lancer in the Dollar II sired Countess cow.  If there is proof that some of the Lancers had Salers in them, I would like to see it.  Like most everyone else, I just saw no visual evidence of Salers in the Lancer influence cattle I saw.  If there was Salers in Awesome, there was a lot more influence from the Irish and G-9 cattle than Lancer.     

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Allegations-Influence is in the eyes of the beholder and or actual breeder of the animal . Bloodtyping caught up one time with Harold Hoskins who bought back Exclusives Carrie (the artist later known as flashes 2975) and he laughed and joked about it for years. The pedigree says Lancer on the Deertrail Countess registration-Wether he was her sire (which he was)  doesnt change anything in her genetics or composistion Shes Hilltop on a MainexDual cow-BFD I couldnt believe Awesome when I saw him-(How did a freak of nature like him come out of a Mark 4 Hilltop Cow?) Awesome had no Irish breeding at all and if Enticer went back to Instant Replay-I"m the Arch Bishop of Canterbury- I never saw Image or Hope-But I was always interested in where the cattle came from and how they changed from dairy ratty cattle like White Hope who was just big and white (Howed he get so big and white ?)to ones like M and H Golden Image a steer bull back in the day. (Howd he get so steery and cool looking in one shot?) I saw his 11 or 12 year old son  Perfect Image at Wendall Dunns-(Howd he get so moderate and thick out of a cow who goes back to Ayatollah? WOW Petro 2 came out of her too) Guys would voice  their opinions Even a pretty well known Char Breeder I was taking to at Denver way back in 1990 RE Great Skinny hope and Spruce Hill Image -I admire the efforts of people who could create great cattle like that and how they did it I dont have to: like everything I see, not throw ideas around that I learned from others experiences or rein in my curiosity about the origens of cattle-Its history by way of opinions -they are not meant to be liked or accepted by everyone-thanks for letting me know Great Hope and Columbus were dual-another opinion gathered in the learning process per se   O0
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 10:51:12 PM by mark tenenbaum »

Online Dale

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Our cattle were tied next to Great White Hope at the state fair.  I was highly impressed with the amount of feed that he ate, maybe the most I ever saw.  This does not reflect on Hope's ancestry, but Columbus sired one daughter for us that was belt-buckle high on a six foot tall man.  That small cow went into our commercial unit, and did we miss the golden opportunity to develop lowline Shorthorns?

The best result we had from Graham genetics was in a A.I. daughter of Deerpark Leader 18th, from which we still have some Clipper cows.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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What did Clark look like? O0

Offline oakview

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There are plenty of photos of Clark out there.  I saw him show in the dairy class at the Iowa State Fair.  He was tall.  Find a photo of his sire, Scottshill Major Clark.  He was very moderate and correct. Clark, Columbus, Spiro, Thornwood Major, and many others were all half brothers sired by Major Clark.  Clark was tall, Columbus was moderate, Spiro was a little small, and Major was kind of average to me.  I showed against Great White Hope several times.  In Denver, Hope was grand champion, my bull was second in class to him and ended up as Reserve Senior Champion.  Kahoa's Charmer 19th was third, shown by Peter Packard.  As the judge was giving his reasons, Peter leaned over to me and said, "You should have beaten him!"  Maybe so, but I was no match for the fitting and showing ability of Roger Worthington and Weaver Angus Farms who was showing him for Mrs. Miller.  I had calves out of all the notable Graham bulls.  Not one calf displayed the remotest influence of anything that was not in their pedigree.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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What about ones bred to non dual bulls O0

Offline oakview

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I see both Leader 13th and 18th in Awesome's pedigree.  He has no Irish breeding?  Are you insinuating that the pedigree was fudged on both sides of his sire's pedigree?  The actual sire was a Maine and the dam's pedigree was fabricated, too?

What about what bred to non-dual bulls?  What does that mean?

I saw Spruce Hill Image several times.  Check out his photos.  He was a tall bull.  If he had something else in him, they hid it very well.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 11:13:04 AM by oakview »

Offline mark tenenbaum

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It depends upon who you talked to-There were alot of opinions on Enticer-I would insinuate that for starters he was no relation to instant replay-at a minimum- if you want to go by his dams pedigree thats up to you-ever see her? What I meant is  I was basically wondering how hard it was to change the other dual dairy cattle when they were bred to a maine influence or Irish etc.-The marvel ones were the ones I saw-along with Awesomes dam and granddam and daughters of Haumont-and other Hilltop breeding  breeding etc-they seemed to cross pretty well to me-as long as they were bred to something thick-and not many of the Graham type cattle were very thick according to people I spoke with. I came along around 7 to 10 years later and saw relatives of some of those 80s cattle,( Ayatollahs, Spiros, even a couple huge white hopes)they looked like they were on the way out-At that time the cattle were big but definitely working on being thicker. O0

Offline Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Guys, we are on the 2019.....we have tools to check pedigrees veracity.
To clear some questions, just analyze the DNA for paternity ....Enticer, Great White Hope, or anyother bull....but, publish the results here!
Talk, even a parrot talks!
Surely I'm the one most curious person in this chat to know how are the fake pedigree bulls!

Offline aj

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I have heard that the Angus breed has so many different breed influences floating around......that if they dna stuff.....they would have to throw out 50% of the pedigrees out of the herd book.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

 

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