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Offline lucysmom

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From bad to worse
« on: May 03, 2010, 06:46:35 PM »
okay, we had the calf that had the white scours, got him sulfa boluses from the vet and never cleared.  Took new sample to vet,
of course we have a second infection due to the first (the first infection is clear now)- clostridium. vet gave Baytril and we've been hitting him with probios and
watching the hydration.  He's a fighter. Finished his third and final shot today, and maybe a little improvement in the diarrhea. nurses  :( :(
well just doesn't hold on to or absorb a lot right now.  Vet said the Baytril will work a couple more days after final injection, and
if he doesn't improve we hit him with two more. Any advice from the gurus? I'm scared to death we're going to lose this baby, because
nothing I know or have read about clostridium is good.

Offline kanshow

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Re: From bad to worse
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2010, 07:07:25 PM »
Have your vet give him fluid IV. 

Offline CAB

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Re: From bad to worse
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2010, 07:25:59 PM »
Have you given him C & D anti-toxin,(anti-clostridium),? 15cc orally & 10cc injected. Revaccinate with 7-way. Plus yes you are giving electrolytes for dehydration, correct? Sometimes it is best to take the calf off of the cow for 48 hours. and just give the electrolytes. The milk sometimes seems to work with the clostridium in a bad way in my experience. Good Luck. Brent

Offline JWW

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Re: From bad to worse
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2010, 07:51:11 PM »
hydration! if he is nursing and hydrated, prognosis would be fairly good , have the vet IV him or get him to do intraosseous fluid therapy (some vets will do this some don't)  usually as a last resort


JWW

Offline DL

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Re: From bad to worse
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2010, 08:22:33 PM »
Did you vet actually see this calf? What does he look like now?? Is he depressed or bright and alert?

Baytril is NOT the drug of choice for clostridial infection - in fact extralabel use of Baytril is strictly forbidden - not sure what your vet was thinking

I agree with the other comments - hydration, antitoxin, vaccinate - I would not take him off the cow and I would consider getting a second opinion and have someone actually look at the calf
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Offline lucysmom

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Re: From bad to worse
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2010, 08:22:34 PM »
See, that's what I was wondering - about the antitoxin.  Vet hasn't given that yet but I'm calling tomorrow to ask about it. Also he advised
that if he was nursing heartily - which he is, has been all along, to not give electrolytes unless signs of dehydration appear - which believe it
or not, they haven't. Skin is good, eyes are good, not laying down all the time, still rather energetic though granted not like normal. Pee is good,
not concentrated.  I also considered pulling him off mama for a day or two, and may do that since others have been through this before.
We can tube him and see if that helps before vet has to do IV. Hate to question the vet because he's been good to us and good with
our cattle, but..... sometimes others' experience is worth it's weight in gold. Thanks to everyone - this is our first calf and we're obviously
rookies but hey you gotta start somewhere. You guys are the best.

Offline husker1

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Re: From bad to worse
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2010, 08:25:40 PM »
I vote to keep him off the cow if you can get him on a bottle....hate to have to tube him....

Amendment....on second thought, just monitor...any sign of digressing, pull him....
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 08:50:44 PM by husker1 »

Offline DL

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Re: From bad to worse
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2010, 08:32:22 PM »
If the calf is bright alert and running around I would absolutely NOT take him off the cow. If he is dehydrated (twist the skin on his neck and see if it pops right back or twist the skin above his eyeball - if it pops back he is not dehydrated, if it takes it's time he is) - if he is dehydrated he needs electrolytes - either by bottle or tubing - if he is mildly dehydrated there is no need for IV or intraosseous and you should be able to rehydrate him orally. I would make sure he has access to water. If he is bright and alert (but not quite normal) he would be mildly dehydrated at most.

It is your calf and IMHO you have the right to question him - being good to you is part of his job

You might consider vaccinating all your newborns with clostridial vaccine at birth (alpha 7 or vision 7) as well as vaccinating the cows before calving
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Offline lucysmom

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Re: From bad to worse
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2010, 08:34:26 PM »
Sounds like I'll have to question the vet  a little closer about meds.  My bigger problem is he's the only bovine vet within at least 75 miles
probably more. And the next closest one  I know of I know I don't want treating my cattle. Gggrr.  No, the vet hasn't actually seen him.
He was at another emergency when we called with ours and has been working from stool samples. We will attempt a bottle before
tubing, but I've heard they can be pretty reluctant to take one. Either way, we're prepared.  Just really hoping to pull him through
this. In the meantime I'm learning a whole lot.

Offline kanshow

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Re: From bad to worse
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2010, 09:03:35 PM »
It's not just runny because he is getting a lot of milk is it?   That can happen too.   Usually that is not white but suppose it could be.    If we get a calf that is scouring really bad, our vet goes right to the IV fluids and antibiotics.  That turns them around about as quick as anything.   The main thing I think is to keep them hydrated while their body and the antibiotics fight off the bug.

Offline lucysmom

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Re: From bad to worse
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2010, 09:38:40 PM »
I really am trying to be politically correct on here because I really don't want to sound critical of the vet, but the way I look at it I should
have enough confidence that I wouldn't be worried that we're not doing the right thing. Don't want to step on toes and all that, because
I really have found a wealth of information on here about all aspects of cattle showing/raising. I've learned so much the last couple of
years that my son actually sometimes listens to me now. lol  These are actually his cattle, but he's off at college so ol mom gets to
help out. I really hate feeling helpless in this situation but feel like I have more info to work with now.  He"s been supervising from afar.
Yes, we've had the cow vaccinated prior to calving.  Don't know why this one happened to be this susceptible.  Although I will say
to our detriment that our plan was to vaccinate the calf at 3 months. Guess that'll be changing next time with a scour vaccine.

Offline jbw

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Re: From bad to worse
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2010, 10:44:03 PM »
IV is the BEST!  I would not give an antitoxin along with a vaccine, they work against each other, give the antitoxin and wait till he clears, then vaccinate him.

Offline SWMO

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Re: From bad to worse
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2010, 11:24:40 AM »
Have you given him C & D anti-toxin,(anti-clostridium),? 15cc orally & 10cc injected. Revaccinate with 7-way. Plus yes you are giving electrolytes for dehydration, correct? Sometimes it is best to take the calf off of the cow for 48 hours. and just give the electrolytes. The milk sometimes seems to work with the clostridium in a bad way in my experience. Good Luck. Brent

This is the procedure that we are using although we usually do not take them off the cow.  Have had one bad enough to put fluid directly into stomach and we saved that calf.  Lost another that we did not use this procedure on.  We have had this problem now for several years.  This year we had sampled the scours and are waiting on the cultures to come back as we speak.  Some of the calves responded to one round of Sustain three boluses and a shot of penicillin while others for what ever reason have had to be retreated.  The younger the calf the harder it seems to get them.

We also vaccinated the calves at birth this year for scours.  We gave an oral vaccine along with a shot.  Obviously what we vaccinated for was not what we are having problems with.  Also all the calves that have been affected have really hit the mineral hard indicating that it is really draining their bodies of necessary trace minerals and salt.

Offline DL

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Re: From bad to worse
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2010, 11:51:19 AM »
I really am trying to be politically correct on here because I really don't want to sound critical of the vet, but the way I look at it I should
have enough confidence that I wouldn't be worried that we're not doing the right thing. Don't want to step on toes and all that, because
I really have found a wealth of information on here about all aspects of cattle showing/raising. I've learned so much the last couple of
years that my son actually sometimes listens to me now. lol  These are actually his cattle, but he's off at college so ol mom gets to
help out. I really hate feeling helpless in this situation but feel like I have more info to work with now.  He"s been supervising from afar.
Yes, we've had the cow vaccinated prior to calving.  Don't know why this one happened to be this susceptible.  Although I will say
to our detriment that our plan was to vaccinate the calf at 3 months. Guess that'll be changing next time with a scour vaccine.

One of the reasons clostridial organisms (they are bacteria) are such a problem is that they are everywhere but the cause disease only when they release the toxin. Tetanus and black leg are caused by related organism. If the anti toxin is given orally it works against the toxin

What did you vaccinate your cow with prior to calving? The clostridial vaccine is different from the usual respiratory BVD vaccine which is also different from the scours vaccine which is different from the pneumonia vaccine which is different from the pink eye vaccine - you need to talk to your vet (or find a vet you can talk to) about a vaccination program - it should be created specifically for your circumstances

your son owes you big time ;)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 11:52:09 AM by DL »
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Offline kanshow

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Re: From bad to worse
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2010, 11:55:15 AM »
Every herd is different and every year is different.    We have not had much problem with scours for years, and this year we got hit hard.    We tried different treatments and sent samples in with no definitive answer.    We had the absolute best success with sulfas & penicillin, if we caught them early.   If they started getting a little dehydrated, we had our vet IV them and while he was administering the fluids, he also gave them Naxcel IV.   This seems to give them a really good jump start back to feeling good.   I think that often when we give them fluids via the stomach, it doesn't stay in the system long enough to get enough good and there is too much going out the other end too fast to keep up.  That is why I am a firm believer in giving fluid IV or SQ.  

 

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