From bad to worse

lucysmom · May 3, 2010

okay, we had the calf that had the white scours, got him sulfa boluses from the vet and never cleared. Took new sample to vet,
of course we have a second infection due to the first (the first infection is clear now)- clostridium. vet gave Baytril and we've been hitting him with probios and
watching the hydration. He's a fighter. Finished his third and final shot today, and maybe a little improvement in the diarrhea. nurses

well just doesn't hold on to or absorb a lot right now. Vet said the Baytril will work a couple more days after final injection, and
if he doesn't improve we hit him with two more. Any advice from the gurus? I'm scared to death we're going to lose this baby, because
nothing I know or have read about clostridium is good.

kanshow · May 3, 2010

Have your vet give him fluid IV.

CAB · May 3, 2010

Have you given him C & D anti-toxin,(anti-clostridium),? 15cc orally & 10cc injected. Revaccinate with 7-way. Plus yes you are giving electrolytes for dehydration, correct? Sometimes it is best to take the calf off of the cow for 48 hours. and just give the electrolytes. The milk sometimes seems to work with the clostridium in a bad way in my experience. Good Luck. Brent

JWW · May 3, 2010

hydration! if he is nursing and hydrated, prognosis would be fairly good , have the vet IV him or get him to do intraosseous fluid therapy (some vets will do this some don't) usually as a last resort

JWW

DL · May 3, 2010

Did you vet actually see this calf? What does he look like now?? Is he depressed or bright and alert?

Baytril is NOT the drug of choice for clostridial infection - in fact extralabel use of Baytril is strictly forbidden - not sure what your vet was thinking

I agree with the other comments - hydration, antitoxin, vaccinate - I would not take him off the cow and I would consider getting a second opinion and have someone actually look at the calf

lucysmom · May 3, 2010

See, that's what I was wondering - about the antitoxin. Vet hasn't given that yet but I'm calling tomorrow to ask about it. Also he advised
that if he was nursing heartily - which he is, has been all along, to not give electrolytes unless signs of dehydration appear - which believe it
or not, they haven't. Skin is good, eyes are good, not laying down all the time, still rather energetic though granted not like normal. Pee is good,
not concentrated. I also considered pulling him off mama for a day or two, and may do that since others have been through this before.
We can tube him and see if that helps before vet has to do IV. Hate to question the vet because he's been good to us and good with
our cattle, but..... sometimes others' experience is worth it's weight in gold. Thanks to everyone - this is our first calf and we're obviously
rookies but hey you gotta start somewhere. You guys are the best.

husker1 · May 3, 2010

I vote to keep him off the cow if you can get him on a bottle....hate to have to tube him....

Amendment....on second thought, just monitor...any sign of digressing, pull him....

DL · May 3, 2010

If the calf is bright alert and running around I would absolutely NOT take him off the cow. If he is dehydrated (twist the skin on his neck and see if it pops right back or twist the skin above his eyeball - if it pops back he is not dehydrated, if it takes it's time he is) - if he is dehydrated he needs electrolytes - either by bottle or tubing - if he is mildly dehydrated there is no need for IV or intraosseous and you should be able to rehydrate him orally. I would make sure he has access to water. If he is bright and alert (but not quite normal) he would be mildly dehydrated at most.

It is your calf and IMHO you have the right to question him - being good to you is part of his job

You might consider vaccinating all your newborns with clostridial vaccine at birth (alpha 7 or vision 7) as well as vaccinating the cows before calving

lucysmom · May 3, 2010

Sounds like I'll have to question the vet a little closer about meds. My bigger problem is he's the only bovine vet within at least 75 miles
probably more. And the next closest one I know of I know I don't want treating my cattle. Gggrr. No, the vet hasn't actually seen him.
He was at another emergency when we called with ours and has been working from stool samples. We will attempt a bottle before
tubing, but I've heard they can be pretty reluctant to take one. Either way, we're prepared. Just really hoping to pull him through
this. In the meantime I'm learning a whole lot.

kanshow · May 3, 2010

It's not just runny because he is getting a lot of milk is it? That can happen too. Usually that is not white but suppose it could be. If we get a calf that is scouring really bad, our vet goes right to the IV fluids and antibiotics. That turns them around about as quick as anything. The main thing I think is to keep them hydrated while their body and the antibiotics fight off the bug.

lucysmom · May 3, 2010

I really am trying to be politically correct on here because I really don't want to sound critical of the vet, but the way I look at it I should
have enough confidence that I wouldn't be worried that we're not doing the right thing. Don't want to step on toes and all that, because
I really have found a wealth of information on here about all aspects of cattle showing/raising. I've learned so much the last couple of
years that my son actually sometimes listens to me now. lol These are actually his cattle, but he's off at college so ol mom gets to
help out. I really hate feeling helpless in this situation but feel like I have more info to work with now. He"s been supervising from afar.
Yes, we've had the cow vaccinated prior to calving. Don't know why this one happened to be this susceptible. Although I will say
to our detriment that our plan was to vaccinate the calf at 3 months. Guess that'll be changing next time with a scour vaccine.

jbw · May 3, 2010

IV is the BEST! I would not give an antitoxin along with a vaccine, they work against each other, give the antitoxin and wait till he clears, then vaccinate him.

SWMO · May 4, 2010

CAB said:
Have you given him C & D anti-toxin,(anti-clostridium),? 15cc orally & 10cc injected. Revaccinate with 7-way. Plus yes you are giving electrolytes for dehydration, correct? Sometimes it is best to take the calf off of the cow for 48 hours. and just give the electrolytes. The milk sometimes seems to work with the clostridium in a bad way in my experience. Good Luck. Brent

This is the procedure that we are using although we usually do not take them off the cow. Have had one bad enough to put fluid directly into stomach and we saved that calf. Lost another that we did not use this procedure on. We have had this problem now for several years. This year we had sampled the scours and are waiting on the cultures to come back as we speak. Some of the calves responded to one round of Sustain three boluses and a shot of penicillin while others for what ever reason have had to be retreated. The younger the calf the harder it seems to get them.

We also vaccinated the calves at birth this year for scours. We gave an oral vaccine along with a shot. Obviously what we vaccinated for was not what we are having problems with. Also all the calves that have been affected have really hit the mineral hard indicating that it is really draining their bodies of necessary trace minerals and salt.

DL · May 4, 2010

lucysmom said:
I really am trying to be politically correct on here because I really don't want to sound critical of the vet, but the way I look at it I should
have enough confidence that I wouldn't be worried that we're not doing the right thing. Don't want to step on toes and all that, because
I really have found a wealth of information on here about all aspects of cattle showing/raising. I've learned so much the last couple of
years that my son actually sometimes listens to me now. lol These are actually his cattle, but he's off at college so ol mom gets to
help out. I really hate feeling helpless in this situation but feel like I have more info to work with now. He"s been supervising from afar.
Yes, we've had the cow vaccinated prior to calving. Don't know why this one happened to be this susceptible. Although I will say
to our detriment that our plan was to vaccinate the calf at 3 months. Guess that'll be changing next time with a scour vaccine.

One of the reasons clostridial organisms (they are bacteria) are such a problem is that they are everywhere but the cause disease only when they release the toxin. Tetanus and black leg are caused by related organism. If the anti toxin is given orally it works against the toxin

What did you vaccinate your cow with prior to calving? The clostridial vaccine is different from the usual respiratory BVD vaccine which is also different from the scours vaccine which is different from the pneumonia vaccine which is different from the pink eye vaccine - you need to talk to your vet (or find a vet you can talk to) about a vaccination program - it should be created specifically for your circumstances

your son owes you big time

kanshow · May 4, 2010

Every herd is different and every year is different. We have not had much problem with scours for years, and this year we got hit hard. We tried different treatments and sent samples in with no definitive answer. We had the absolute best success with sulfas & penicillin, if we caught them early. If they started getting a little dehydrated, we had our vet IV them and while he was administering the fluids, he also gave them Naxcel IV. This seems to give them a really good jump start back to feeling good. I think that often when we give them fluids via the stomach, it doesn't stay in the system long enough to get enough good and there is too much going out the other end too fast to keep up. That is why I am a firm believer in giving fluid IV or SQ.

CAB · May 4, 2010

jbw said:
IV is the BEST! I would not give an antitoxin along with a vaccine, they work against each other, give the antitoxin and wait till he clears, then vaccinate him.

I understand what you are saying in this statement, but in some cases the clostrial problems are so hot that you have to give them both @ the same time B/C you need the anti-toxin to keep them alive to give the toxoid time to give protection and a revaccination will be needed say approx. 30 days later.

shelby23 · May 4, 2010

We have a calf with the same symptoms going on right now...For some reason we have scours like that but if they go from white to a gray color it is e-coli scours.. Our vet had us give the calf 3cc of gentamiacyn ini the muscle in the neck and 3cc in the mouth...it worked right away.. we also give tetracylcine scour boluses (yellow) in color.. from past experience, we never take the calf off the mother and when you give electrolytes with scours it curdles in there tummy...we also give Appetite Express..it has b vitamins and probiotics and seems to settle their tummy and keep their appetite up.. Hope this helps..baking soda drench also really helps to buffer their stomachs and get rid of alot of the acid...that works for acidosis also..

DL · May 4, 2010

shelby23 said:
Our vet had us give the calf 3cc of gentamiacyn ini the muscle in the neck and 3cc in the mouth...it worked right away..

Did your vet also tell you that the slaughter withhold for animals treated with Gentamicin is 18 (eighteen) MONTHS?? YES A YEAR AND A HALF - the use of gentamicin in food animals is to be greatly discouraged

CAB · May 4, 2010

I was going to say that I thought that genamiacin had been off of the market for right @ 20 years.

I think that it is the milk that is curdling in the calf''s stomach. That white/grey scours is usually a milk or weather scours. If it gets to the consistency of water no matter what color it is, is when we all start to worry big time B/C that's when the calf can go to following momma one day, to not being able to get up and stand the next. Needless to say that we want to get on top of the problem quickly. Anyone that has had this kind of scours knows how paranoid a producer can get if you start to see signs of an all out breakout of scours!!!

As far as taking the calf off of Momma, it seems like a mean thing to do and it is hard for a person to do, but in my experience I have had the best results treating the calf to recovery by pulling them for a minimum of 48 hours and a maximum of 72 hours. This is of coarse for calves that are , let's say in critical condition. As earlier mentioned, if we can get on top of a problem quickly, it is best. I often treat possibly too quickly, but I am one of the paranoid PPL that have had a full blown case of scours once or twice.

kanshow · May 4, 2010

I agree CAB.. we probably treat calves that if left alone, may clear themselves. However, it can be only a couple hours from following momma to down and can't get up.

The motto around here is .. when in doubt, treat.

From bad to worse

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