Genetic Defects

PaPigMan · Mar 10, 2009

I am probably going to get blasted for this, but, here goes. Why do we keep spreading PHA and TH by using carrier bulls and females? I am amazed every spring when I look through the new sire catalogs and see page after page of carrier genetics being promoted. I am a very small operation but I simply won't use carrier bulls and my cows are genetic defect free. Am I the norm or the exception? I recently read an ad in a popular sire catalog which said, and I paraphrase, "he's a defect free bull that looks like a carrier." I read it last year in the same catalog. With all the worries the calving season brings, do we really need to kick ourselves by using carrier genetics?

Cattledog · Mar 10, 2009

Today Steer Planet is only concentrating on Angus Defects, you may want to try back tomorrow.

kfacres · Mar 10, 2009

The TH and PHA is just a show gene IMO, that has been formed through the show ring.... TH cattle are hairier, bigger boned and what not... PHA cattle are the super stouties... extreme bone--- basically what it all boils down to is that those deformities have some breeders thinking that becuase they have them, their cattle will be superior in the show ring...

Wheter or not TH and PHA cattle have an advantage in terms of hair, bone, etc... Prob not any scientific evidence-- but you try changing some old timer's mind, or some steer jocky's, or anyone who is dead set that they have an advantage becuase of it.... Good luck with that....

Best advice I ever heard, breed the cattle that you like.. Besides, your the only one who has to see them every day.. Why breed something that makes you unhappy or is an eye sore to look at??? Why produce cattle that will keep you up at night wondering when the next genetics deformity will show up?

Doen't matter about TH and PHA, I'm sure that there are 10 more deformities out there today just as bad.... thay just ain't found yet!!

knabe · Mar 10, 2009

PaPigMan said:
I am probably going to get blasted for this, but, here goes. Why do we keep spreading PHA and TH by using carrier bulls and females? I am amazed every spring when I look through the new sire catalogs and see page after page of carrier genetics being promoted. I am a very small operation but I simply won't use carrier bulls and my cows are genetic defect free. Am I the norm or the exception? I recently read an ad in a popular sire catalog which said, and I paraphrase, "he's a defect free bull that looks like a carrier." I read it last year in the same catalog. With all the worries the calving season brings, do we really need to kick ourselves by using carrier genetics?

we don't. it's being weeded out while people try and make free one's. simply a snapshot in time. you don't have to use carrier bulls. lot's of choices out there. what's wrong with a bull that looks like a carrier but isn't? isn't that what the show industry wants?

no blasting necessary, do what you want, everyone else does.

cowman 52 · Mar 10, 2009

Mainly they are used by people who don't give a flying **** as long as they can sell one to somebody, anybody and collect a few $$$ #2 and have a show winner # 1. If the breed associations would tear up the papers on this junk There would be a lot less genetic problems and if breeders could look past those E P {DAM} D's and judge cattle for the way they are supposed to look and not try to inbreed till GOD comes home. Always thought epd's were to make cattle people out of someone who did not know which end of a cow to feed (clapping)

aj · Mar 10, 2009

I respectfully agree and disagree with the epd deal. I think it depends on the breed mainly. If you have accuracy and thousands of progency I think epd's are important. I'm not sure they should be important in the showring. If you take the Shorthorn breed there are low accuracies. There are lower numbers reported. I have heard that people were ticked off about the one shorthorn breeder who purposely meddled in the bwt of epd's and completely changed the epd's of a bull by falsifiying info,creating little progency groups, and etc. The breed is small enough he could pull it off. I think they they ought to throw him out of the assc. but they won't. On the other hand if you take the Red Angus breed and look at their epd's I am a believer. They have numbers on everything with accuracies. They were a breed who did the numbers and skipped the showring stuff and stayed pure and stayed good. I personally think the showring will eventually screw them up. If you have good cattle linebreed. It is the only way to discover problems. If they are that good linebreed them. I just got done weighing a calf from a half sister- half brother mating. I have done enough of the linebreeding deal I am fairly certain that no problem exists. I do have some a few th carrier cows and they do seem to have the club calf prospects. I know K-State used to have a tightly bred herd of Shorthorns where the cattle were linebred to death and no problems showed up. This was before Windstar and Improver. Why would anyone not linebreed their cattle to test for problems before they dedicate their life to a bloodline of cattle and thousands of dollars? Linebreeding isn't the problem...defects are the problem. Withe new technologies and awareness of problems you will not be able to hide in the tall grass any longer. jmo

knabe · Mar 10, 2009

aj said:
you will not be able to hide in the tall grass any longer. jmo

can you hide if that's the name of your company? ;D

aj · Mar 10, 2009

My roundup ready pioneer 1339 triple stacked marajuana was shorter last year. Is that what you meant? ;D

knabe · Mar 10, 2009

aj said:
My roundup ready pioneer 1339 triple stacked marajuana was shorter last year. Is that what you meant? ;D

no, the tallgrass beef company owned by the tv bill curtis guy.

aj · Mar 10, 2009

I stand corrected as usual.

ROAD WARRIOR · Mar 10, 2009

aj said:
I respectfully agree and disagree with the epd deal. I think it depends on the breed mainly. If you have accuracy and thousands of progency I think epd's are important. I'm not sure they should be important in the showring. If you take the Shorthorn breed there are low accuracies. There are lower numbers reported. I have heard that people were ticked off about the one shorthorn breeder who purposely meddled in the bwt of epd's and completely changed the epd's of a bull by falsifiying info,creating little progency groups, and etc. The breed is small enough he could pull it off. I think they they ought to throw him out of the assc. but they won't. On the other hand if you take the Red Angus breed and look at their epd's I am a believer. They have numbers on everything with accuracies. They were a breed who did the numbers and skipped the showring stuff and stayed pure and stayed good. I personally think the showring will eventually screw them up. If you have good cattle linebreed. It is the only way to discover problems. If they are that good linebreed them. I just got done weighing a calf from a half sister- half brother mating. I have done enough of the linebreeding deal I am fairly certain that no problem exists. I do have some a few th carrier cows and they do seem to have the club calf prospects. I know K-State used to have a tightly bred herd of Shorthorns where the cattle were linebred to death and no problems showed up. This was before Windstar and Improver. Why would anyone not linebreed their cattle to test for problems before they dedicate their life to a bloodline of cattle and thousands of dollars? Linebreeding isn't the problem...defects are the problem. Withe new technologies and awareness of problems you will not be able to hide in the tall grass any longer. jmo

Even the RA breed is contaminated by number manipulation. EPD's are IMHO a marketing tool, Use a high accuracy AI bull, put his calves in the same contemporary group as the progeny of the bull that you are trying to promote - trash the AI bulls calves data that you turn in and turn in exceptional data on the other calves. Eventually if other breeders use your bull the truth will come out but it will take several years for the accuracies to get high enough to kill him. As far as EPD's in the show ring - the RA's have taken that to the extreme as much as the steers have taken hair to the extreme. I have seen excellent animals with just decent ( and probably honest) EPD's get beat badly by animals that were of far lesser quality but politically correct EPD's. I think we are in a trend away from that now as there are fewer and fewer breeders that are putting much faith in the computer generated and manipulated EPD's. I know of a few people that sat in front of their computers and stacked the numbers when making their breeding decisions, never giving a second thought to soundness, body type, etc., most ended up with EPD's thaty were off the charts but the cattle couldn't back up the numbers. RW

PaPigMan · Mar 11, 2009

Knabe,

I realize that there are alot of clean bulls out there. I am just surprised by the ratio of clean to carrier bulls in alot of the sire catalogs. I am guessing that 75% percent of those advertised are carriers. How is that weeding out the problem? I had one supplier try and sell me a carrier heifer. His statement was "just breed her to a clean bull." I guess that means breed her to a clean bull for the next 10 to 12 years and test all her daughters and breed them to clean bulls as well. I guess I will have to pass that valuable information on to all that purchase her prodigy from me as well. I really hope you are right that it is a snapshot in time. I respect your opinions, but, after looking at current state of the industry, I humbly disagree.

kfacres,

Thanks. I agree. Breed cattle that please you.

Cattledog · Mar 11, 2009

What is the policy of the Shorthorn Association and the Maine Association on registering carriers?

red · Mar 11, 2009

Cattledog said:
What is the policy of the Shorthorn Association and the Maine Association on registering carriers?

the Maines will not allow any carrier bull to be registered starting this year. No change on cows.

Red

Cattledog · Mar 11, 2009

red said:
Cattledog said:

What is the policy of the Shorthorn Association and the Maine Association on registering carriers?

Click to expand...

the Maines will not allow any carrier bull to be registered starting this year. No change on cows.

Red

What is your opinion on that? I guess I don't understand why the Maines don't just try to wash their hands of the defect. There has to be plenty of quality clean genetics out there.

olsun · Mar 11, 2009

I'm not a young man anymore, so I can use that as an excuse for my lack of ability to reason. I was a charolais breeder in the 70's when they discovered Arthrogryposis, I'm sure I spelled that wrong. Anyway, the char assn. jumped right on the problem, and I believe they pulled some papers. It seems like only a brief moment in time, but it didn't take long and it was no longer a problem. It would seem reasonable for the breed assns to pull or deny papers to carriers, and I promise the problem won't be around long. There will be more I'm sure, but if we acted quickly on the lethal defects, none would be a lingering problem.We really don't need carriers to raise functional cattle. JMO

Cattledog · Mar 11, 2009

olsun said:
I'm not a young man anymore, so I can use that as an excuse for my lack of ability to reason. I was a charolais breeder in the 70's when they discovered Arthrogryposis, I'm sure I spelled that wrong. Anyway, the char assn. jumped right on the problem, and I believe they pulled some papers. It seems like only a brief moment in time, but it didn't take long and it was no longer a problem. It would seem reasonable for the breed assns to pull or deny papers to carriers, and I promise the problem won't be around long. There will be more I'm sure, but if we acted quickly on the lethal defects, none would be a lingering problem.We really don't need carriers to raise functional cattle. JMO

I completely agree! The Angus breed has given a grace period to cattle bred before the defect was discovered. I believe next year nothing can be registered if they are an AM carrier. I was expecting them to pull papers on everything and was fine with it.

I guess a point of reason would be that I am merely a hobby Angus breeder...although sometimes it seems like another full time job. I went to a couple of sales this past year where the breeders included the carrier status. These people count on their cattle for a big part of their income. It is hard when you watch good people get a bad role of the dice. I believe the most important thing is that we address and identify these defects and eliminate them as soon as possible. It is every breeder's responsibility to educate their customers on their breeds genetic problems.

Dusty · Mar 11, 2009

Is fine boned and narrow butted considered a genetic defect?

bcosu · Mar 11, 2009

Dusty said:
Is fine boned and narrow butted considered a genetic defect?

hah! i've heard that one called the no-@$$-at-all gene.

shortyjock89 · Mar 11, 2009

cbcfarms said:
Dusty said:

Is fine boned and narrow butted considered a genetic defect?

Click to expand...

hah! i've heard that one called the no-@$$-at-all gene.

I've heard that 95% of all Angus are carriers of that gene. ;D

Genetic Defects

Help Support Steer Planet:

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member