Heifer Show turned into Fitting Contest...

I was watching part of the heifer show at the Hoosier Beef Congress today. The judge placed his picks and came on the microphone. Said something about every calf. When it came to the last three calfs in the class he says to the second to last heifer and I quote " If your heifer had a little better clip job we could bump her up a  couple spots". It was the only bad thing he said about the heifer. If this is the only fault he could find in the heifer why was she not placed higher? I think myself and the kid showing that heifer would like to know. He not only did this on one, but three ocassions. Wording it differently each time. I heard him say another time about " Indiana clipping wizards". "Sorry the fitting contest was yesterday" was what came into my mind when I heard him make these remarks. They were the only bad things he said about these calves.

I'm with you brother.

probably the last show he judged, he said what was wrong with the calves at the bottom and got his butt chewed for that.

One should want to present their cattle in the best way possible. But in a junior show too many are fitted by professionals. Not saying that is wrong but it does make it difficult for the ones starting out and learning. Some are fitted by kids and/or families who show a lot and very well practiced at fitting which is good.

But to expect there not to be some variance in a junior show is unrealistic. And to penalize one for it is wrong. Though I would suspect that it happens more than we realize.
JMHO

herefordfootball said:

If this is the only fault he could find in the heifer why was she not placed higher?

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a bad clip job probably made the faults of the heifer more obvious. A good clip job can hide a lot of stuff but a bad one can make one look worse than it actually is

I agree with Knabe on this one. I'm starting to get the opportunity to judge a good handful of shows. I judge both junior and open shows. I find it much easier to talk the animals at open shows because you can be alot more to the point because most of the exhibitors are adults. Lets face it, if you are real to the point at junior shows you will probably hurt someone feelings or make there parents or grandparents mad. I'm not saying pointing out bad clip/fit jobs is the answer but atleast they can change that with some practice and hard work, so you kinda give them something to work for. If you say their animal is poor balanced, bad structured, light muscled, shallow bodied and frail then they may see no more reason to work hard, and just drop showing animals altogether. Maybe thats just my opinion but i run into those situations alot, where there isn't much good to say, but you definately don't want to list everything bad.

herefordfootball said:

I was watching part of the heifer show at the Hoosier Beef Congress today. The judge placed his picks and came on the microphone. Said something about every calf. When it came to the last three calfs in the class he says to the second to last heifer and I quote " If your heifer had a little better clip job we could bump her up a  couple spots". It was the only bad thing he said about the heifer. If this is the only fault he could find in the heifer why was she not placed higher? I think myself and the kid showing that heifer would like to know. He not only did this on one, but three ocassions. Wording it differently each time. I heard him say another time about " Indiana clipping wizards". "Sorry the fitting contest was yesterday" was what came into my mind when I heard him make these remarks. They were the only bad things he said about these calves.

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I think I was watching the class where the comment was made and you missed the point.  The heifer as I saw her had a Steer or Market Heifer clip job  tons of leg hair, huge top and hip and not tight through the neck and shoulder.  Greg made some comments as well on the other ring along the same lines "To much mass for the body they posses", "Tighter clip job on the shoulder would help;".  Bottomline Heifers are females and the biggest top, leg, and middle don't win.  I actually felt both Stewarts were very consistant and favored stout, thick ones over pretty ones not the way I like them but consistant and that is all you can ask for.

A clip job can make the difference in a good heifer being great or getting dumped, if you don't think a clip job makes a difference in appearance you haven't been doing this very long.

when i look for something negative to reinforce my position, i make sure to cherry pick heavily, otherwise, i might have to improve.

probably some other factors for judges is sticking to the time schedule.  as they make comments on the top end of the class to satisfy everyone, especially a difficult class where the animals are all different, they have to move along, and sometimes compromise on the detail of explanation at the lower end.  perhaps judges adjust their reasons for the type of fair to take into account the help the exhibitors are looking for.  i know at our local shows, some judges do that with every exhibitor and it's easier for them because we don't have that many.  the judges do it after their reasons one on one in the ring so everyone can't hear.  i think the exhibitors and the parents appreciate that.

If a judge cannot see through a fitting job he shouldn't be judging or we better start slick shearing  all of them.  In the last 15 years we have made this type of judging ok , or otherwise we said if you want to cheat to win  go ahead ..thats why we got guys doing things that are illegal to win..some judges even compliment them for it , nothing new ----

Who judged?

afhm said:

Who judged?

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who commented on the judge.  full name, address, phone number, email, etc.  it's not appropriate to continually bash judges when we aren't there.  people should become a judge if they are so concerned about all this crap and see what it's like on the other side.

this thread is no longer about being a fitting contest, it's now about a judge bashing contest.

showman said:

herefordfootball said:

If this is the only fault he could find in the heifer why was she not placed higher?

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a bad clip job probably made the faults of the heifer more obvious. A good clip job can hide a lot of stuff but a bad one can make one look worse than it actually is

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My take is more along this line.  I've Judged only a few shows in our area so, have only limited experience with presenting reasons.  By our own family experience I agree that this happens many times, and I agree with this Judge; grooming and fitting is a huge part of the total package you bring into the Show Ring.  I've stated my belief many times on Showmanship threads that it is always won at home.  I believe the same to be true concerning the selection of each animal in the ring.  We are discussing a Beauty contest.  A perfectly fed, groomed & fit Show Heifer of good quality will place above a poorly groomed heifer of better quality 90% of the time.  A single Judge does not have the time in a class of even 4 or 5 to properly analyze the animals.  I know this statement will produce cries that a person who can't properly sort 4 calves in 5 minutes has no business Judging.  Don't talk if you haven't tried it!  How many of you have spent hours and hours picking out that great calf only to end up with a "middle of the class" project?  Again from personal experience, I can think of countless times our calves were placed over calves of superior quality because of how they were presented.  As to the "Professional" groomers, anyone can do it.  Like anything, all it takes is practice and patience.  Don't blame the Judge for a poor placing due to others having better groomers, fitters, or a superior feed program.  You will gt out of this "Show Business" exactly what you put in to it.

Perfectly stated AAOK

Jill said:

A clip job can make the difference in a good heifer being great or getting dumped, if you don't think a clip job makes a difference in appearance you haven't been doing this very long.

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A clip job does make a difference I agree, but when the only bad thing the judge can say about the heifer is the clip job and he places her 2nd to last, thats poor judging on his part.

AAOK said:

showman said:

herefordfootball said:

If this is the only fault he could find in the heifer why was she not placed higher?

Click to expand...

a bad clip job probably made the faults of the heifer more obvious. A good clip job can hide a lot of stuff but a bad one can make one look worse than it actually is

Click to expand...

My take is more along this line.  I've Judged only a few shows in our area so, have only limited experience with presenting reasons.  By our own family experience I agree that this happens many times, and I agree with this Judge; grooming and fitting is a huge part of the total package you bring into the Show Ring.  I've stated my belief many times on Showmanship threads that it is always won at home.  I believe the same to be true concerning the selection of each animal in the ring.  We are discussing a Beauty contest.  A perfectly fed, groomed & fit Show Heifer of good quality will place above a poorly groomed heifer of better quality 90% of the time.  A single Judge does not have the time in a class of even 4 or 5 to properly analyze the animals.  I know this statement will produce cries that a person who can't properly sort 4 calves in 5 minutes has no business Judging.  Don't talk if you haven't tried it!  How many of you have spent hours and hours picking out that great calf only to end up with a "middle of the class" project?  Again from personal experience, I can think of countless times our calves were placed over calves of superior quality because of how they were presented.  As to the "Professional" groomers, anyone can do it.  Like anything, all it takes is practice and patience.   Don't blame the Judge for a poor placing due to others having better groomers, fitters, or a superior feed program.  You will gt out of this "Show Business" exactly what you put in to it.

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You can spend all the time in the world picking out a calf and still not win. I know people who can pick the winners all day long, but they dont have the checkbook to back it up.  As for how calves are presented I thought that was what showmanship was for? Showmanship and fitting play a role in how you place on show day, but when they play a larger percent of how the calf is placed than what the actual animal quality is thats when you get problems. And as for "professional groomers", not "anyone" can do it. You can practice as much as possible and still not be as good as others. Im not blaming the judge for the bad placing, I just think its in poor taste to put a heifer below others just because she doesnt have the groom job the others do.

Freddy said:

If a judge cannot see through a fitting job he shouldn't be judging or we better start slick shearing  all of them.   In the last 15 years we have made this type of judging ok , or otherwise we said if you want to cheat to win  go ahead ..thats why we got guys doing things that are illegal to win..some judges even compliment them for it , nothing new ----

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Exactly.

jmb1498 said:

herefordfootball said:

I was watching part of the heifer show at the Hoosier Beef Congress today. The judge placed his picks and came on the microphone. Said something about every calf. When it came to the last three calfs in the class he says to the second to last heifer and I quote " If your heifer had a little better clip job we could bump her up a  couple spots". It was the only bad thing he said about the heifer. If this is the only fault he could find in the heifer why was she not placed higher? I think myself and the kid showing that heifer would like to know. He not only did this on one, but three ocassions. Wording it differently each time. I heard him say another time about " Indiana clipping wizards". "Sorry the fitting contest was yesterday" was what came into my mind when I heard him make these remarks. They were the only bad things he said about these calves.

Click to expand...

I think I was watching the class where the comment was made and you missed the point.  The heifer as I saw her had a Steer or Market Heifer clip job  tons of leg hair, huge top and hip and not tight through the neck and shoulder.  Greg made some comments as well on the other ring along the same lines "To much mass for the body they posses", "Tighter clip job on the shoulder would help;".  Bottomline Heifers are females and the biggest top, leg, and middle don't win.  I actually felt both Stewarts were very consistant and favored stout, thick ones over pretty ones not the way I like them but consistant and that is all you can ask for.

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No, I didnt hear him make that comment. I heard he commented on three other calves clip jobs though, so this must of been one of them. I agree they were consistent with their picks, cant complain about that.

Placing a heifer lower in a class just because her clipping wasn't the best sounds a little ridiculous, especially if it was a kid's heifers. I think that its better if the judge would have said something was wrong with the heifer. Pointing out that the kid didn't clip his/her animal the best would make it seem like the judge was just picking on the kid IMO. I would find a comment like that a little bit discouraging.  JMO, I've never shown at a big national or state show or anything.

Rocky Hill said:

Placing a heifer lower in a class just because her clipping wasn't the best sounds a little ridiculous, especially if it was a kid's heifers. I think that its better if the judge would have said something was wrong with the heifer. Pointing out that the kid didn't clip his/her animal the best would make it seem like the judge was just picking on the kid IMO. I would find a comment like that a little bit discouraging.  JMO, I've never shown at a big national or state show or anything.

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I think there were some folks taken back, it was the only thing he said was wrong with the heifer, he just said if she had a better clip job we could bump her up a few spots.