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Offline mooch

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Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« on: August 28, 2010, 01:42:00 PM »
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20100828/BUSINESS01/8280328/Iowa-State-Fair-big-steer-winner-was-a-clone

This will probably kill any public interest and support that was left for steer shows.Feed back dosen't sound positive from the public.

Offline tj1993

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2010, 02:58:23 PM »
not so sure about that mooch, my cousin has been showing dairy heifers for years and tells me that clones have been shown at the World Dairy Expo for years and that show gets bigger every year.  Its no big deal to them.
tj

Offline Telos

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2010, 03:31:27 PM »
This is one for the archives. First grand champion cloned steer.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 03:33:42 PM by Telos »
Jack Jabara

Offline jimbob123

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2010, 05:20:46 PM »
IMO, it is cheating. 

If you think about the reasons we have Stock Shows it goes against it.  It is to teach the kids hard work ethics as well as improve genetics.


Offline Telos

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2010, 07:14:39 PM »
IMO, it is cheating. 

If you think about the reasons we have Stock Shows it goes against it.  It is to teach the kids hard work ethics as well as improve genetics.


My first thoughts were a little negative but after some thought I feel that it is perfectly alright. There is nothing in the rules that say cloned calves are prohibited.

I do think the old fashion way of breeding for a good show calf (A.I. included) is more challenging, but more power to the folks who have the resources to clone a good calf. Why not take advantage of this technology.

Cloning does not insure a great calf that wins. It still has to  be nurtured properly with people that work hard and have the skills to get them to the winners circle.

 
Jack Jabara

Offline Aussie

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2010, 07:17:55 PM »
After reading some of the comments posted on the link one raised a good point.
Maybe the whole class should be of the one cloned str then it will just come down to who is the best feeder and fitter. (lol)

Offline Mtnman

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2010, 09:04:29 PM »
Maybe I am not reading right but, this show was a year ago and we are just now hearing about it, I would have thought this would have made front page news in most ag related news. As far as what it means to me, for steer shows maybe it will see some use, not at the price they claim in the article for anyone I know, but I think it kind of defeats the purpose of a breeding show, and wouldn't be much fun either.

Offline FutureBreeder

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2010, 09:10:55 PM »
No, that steer is from the 2010 IA state fair, but its a clone to the 08 champion.

Offline commercialfarmer

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2010, 06:27:29 PM »
I got to thinking I haven't made enough enemies lately, so thought I would chime in.   :)

I have never shown, and I don't have any firm beliefs against cloning.  I think that if a superior animal (not just phenotype, but also possibly resistance to disease or meat quality) is created cloning can be an added tool to the arsenal of propagation of that particular animals genetics along with ET and AI. 

The debate in my mind about cloning concerning show animals comes in the following.  Is the purpose of showing - to bring the best animal possible to the ring as far as structure, decisions made in feeding the animal, and grooming  Or is the purpose of showing- to test an individuals ability to look through all possible prospect stock available to them to choose which undeveloped young calf will grow into the best structured animal from which to make decisions regarding feeding, grooming, and whatever else is entailed into bringing a show animal in the ring. 

To me if the former is the goal- then any possible technique should be available.  If the later is the goal (to test an individuals ability to judge undeveloped stock) then cloning should be banned as this would provide a contestant with an unfair advantage of knowing the true genetic potential (this is not saying they will be identical). 

I would think that the goals of the show industry are identified first and foremost, this would be less of a debate. 

Offline simtal

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2010, 07:04:54 PM »
just because the steer is a clone doesnt mean that he automatically does the following:

feeds himself
works his own hair
fits himself
gets in the truck and drives to the show
etc...


Using this logic we should ban full sibs....

This is a haves/have nots issue, not a question of work ethic.  This is only exacerbated because general public is too uninformed to know about clones/ag in general.
....Now, they always, in the direst of circumstances, every time liberalism fails, which is every time it's tried, at some point you reach a catastrophe.....

Offline commercialfarmer

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2010, 10:06:29 PM »
just because the steer is a clone doesnt mean that he automatically does the following:

feeds himself
works his own hair
fits himself
gets in the truck and drives to the show
etc...


Using this logic we should ban full sibs....

This is a haves/have nots issue, not a question of work ethic.  This is only exacerbated because general public is too uninformed to know about clones/ag in general.


Again, I am an outsider with no dog in the hunt- so as far as I care- use them, don't use them.  Don't really care.  I have only started paying attention to the show ring animals to add a little flare to my herd.    

With no disrespect intended to anyone, it totally cracks me up that a portion of the deciding factor to chose the best quality animal is based on a "hair cut" (I understand there is a science to the technique, but it doesn't add to the value of the animal itself).  Not sure that I have seen any animals drive themselves.  However, that would be one that I think would deserve cloning.  Because I am not pushing any particular agenda- I will agree, no animal feeds or cares for itself.  There appears to be a lot of work involved.  I commend anyone that is dedicated, and willing to see something through.  To many kids these days don't have any type of work ethic.  

Lets use logic and the process of reproduction.  Full sibs breeding vs Clones...  Out of curiosity, do you have a brother? Sister? or two children or know any couple that has two children?  Do they look identical?  They are a product of the same breeding pair.  They have some of the same genes  but also each has genes they do not share making them different.  Sometimes VERY different.  

With 59 pairs of chromosomes in a bull a the start of creation of sperm, then with multiple crossovers (creating new chromosome combinations) between each pair, the variety of gene combinations in sperm is enormous. Now consider that the dam is doing the same.  Now do you expect the progeny to be identical or close to identical No.   Secondly, if you take a bull composed of multiple breeds and breed to a cow composed of multiple breeds, the potential for diversity is expanded.  

So lets again consider clones vs. breeding full sibs-  they are nothing alike.  Who knows what you will have at 14 months with each new birth.  Put a clone in a similar environment, you have a similar expectation. And again- I don't really care if they are or are not used.  But to say that there is not an advantage to seeing the end product of the exact genetic composition in the animal previously (under slightly different environments- as all of them are pushed hard) is nothing less than silly.  

I like logic, wish it was used more often in todays world.   :) 
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 10:14:25 PM by comercialfarmer »

Offline JAGUR01

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2010, 10:19:26 PM »
just because the steer is a clone doesnt mean that he automatically does the following:

feeds himself
works his own hair
fits himself
gets in the truck and drives to the show
etc...


Using this logic we should ban full sibs....

This is a haves/have nots issue, not a question of work ethic.  This is only exacerbated because general public is too uninformed to know about clones/ag in general.


Again, I am an outsider with no dog in the hunt- so as far as I care- use them, don't use them.  Don't really care.  I have only started paying attention to the show ring animals to add a little flare to my herd.    

With no disrespect intended to anyone, it totally cracks me up that a portion of the deciding factor to chose the best quality animal is based on a "hair cut" (I understand there is a science to the technique, but it doesn't add to the value of the animal itself).  Not sure that I have seen any animals drive themselves.  However, that would be one that I think would deserve cloning.  Because I am not pushing any particular agenda- I will agree, no animal feeds or cares for itself.  There appears to be a lot of work involved.  I commend anyone that is dedicated, and willing to see something through.  To many kids these days don't have any type of work ethic.  

Lets use logic and the process of reproduction.  Full sibs breeding vs Clones...  Out of curiosity, do you have a brother? Sister? or two children or know any couple that has two children?  Do they look identical?  They are a product of the same breeding pair.  They have some of the same genes  but also each has genes they do not share making them different.  Sometimes VERY different.  

With 59 pairs of chromosomes in a bull a the start of creation of sperm, then with multiple crossovers (creating new chromosome combinations) between each pair, the variety of gene combinations in sperm is enormous. Now consider that the dam is doing the same.  Now do you expect the progeny to be identical or close to identical No.   Secondly, if you take a bull composed of multiple breeds and breed to a cow composed of multiple breeds, the potential for diversity is expanded.  

So lets again consider clones vs. breeding full sibs-  they are nothing alike.  Who knows what you will have at 14 months with each new birth.  Put a clone in a similar environment, you have a similar expectation. And again- I don't really care if they are or are not used.  But to say that there is not an advantage to seeing the end product of the exact genetic composition in the animal previously (under slightly different environments- as all of them are pushed hard) is nothing less than silly.  

I like logic, wish it was used more often in todays world.   :) 
Could not have said it any better. 

Offline The Show

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2010, 08:11:37 AM »
Look at the 15 HW clones. No two of them look alike, and none of them seem to have the same result even though they are a genetic copy of the original. I think if you can afford to clone then go for it.

Cloning is going to be the next slick shear vs hair debate, and people will argue their side until the end of the earth. There will be the people who say it's not fair, and there will be the people that say life's not fair. Just go ahead and pick your side now.

Offline gw197510

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2010, 08:47:48 AM »
I agree wiht comercial farmer - I had a pretty knowledgable person tell me that any winning show animal is about 25% genetics, 50% hard work by the exhibitor (feeding, washing and hair grooming, trimming feet, breaking to lead and show, fitting, etc, etc) and 25% dumb ass luck (whether the judge likes their kind, does the calf get sick or go off feed, the other calves in their class, etc.)  They can only control the first two and even then, there is always a pretty big percentage totally out of their control. Just because a calf is a clone is absolutely no guarantee of a win in a business where there are no guarantees.

Offline angus showman

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2010, 09:07:21 AM »
I agree cloning is not cheating although genetically the same the clones still have different additudes feed different grow hair different depending on what environment they are in look at the HW clones how many of them are as good as Heat wave himself. What makes me wonder about clones is as we progress into the future we are supposed to keep improving our livestock how long can we clone a calf. Im not saying the cloned Iowa steer should have not won I never saw the steer and apparently he was plenty good enough to win but it seems like we are picking steer style from a couple years back which is fine but its like genetics should have got better in the last two years so the question arises how long can you clone a great one before genetic drift or style is platued or declined instead of improve

 

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