Here comes the fallout from the clone.

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forcheyhawk

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Jul 17, 2008
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If I was Fabers, I would clone that same steer until someone beats it.  Why the heck not?  It's not against the rules.  Be kind of funny if they went on a 5 year winning streak with a clone of the 2008 champ.  Watch that $15000 steer take down $40-50,000 steers year after year.  Wonder how that would change the landscape?  Be interesting to watch from the sidelines.  Be interesting if that would change anyone's tune about it.  Meanwhile, I'm still on the fence about if it's right or wrong.  I can see both sides.
 

Show Heifer

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First off, it wasn't a $15000 clone, it cost way more if you add in the 8 full clone sibs that DID NOT MAKE IT, yet cost the same to "develop".  If you figure that in, it was more like a $100,000 animal.  But since fabers basically are trans ova, then it was actually probably free. Only you and I are paying for it through their fees and "grant programs" (if they take any government money). 

The quote is a good one. If the same animal can win in the show ring 2 years later, 5 years later, 10 years later, it means the beef breeding programs are stagnant and going nowhere, which is a fast track to the bankers window and even a faster track to the city employment line due to bankrupcy on the farm.

Can cloning be done? Yes. SHOULD it be done? Not so sure. There are a lot of things that CAN be done that SHOULDN'T be done.

As far as the "management" question cloning would actually be a very interesting and useful tool... take a group of 20 clones, give each exhibitor a calf, then in 10 months have a show. May the best manager win.....  kinda like that idea myself!
Oh, and ask the exhibitors questions about their calf.... if the exhibitor actually cared for the calf, they should have no trouble answering questions about when, how much, and what they fed.  Yep, I think I might be on to something!

 

tj1993

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Show hiefer;  you wrote "As far as the "management" question cloning would actually be a very interesting and useful tool... take a group of 20 clones, give each exhibitor a calf, then in 10 months have a show. May the best manager win.....  kinda like that idea myself! Oh, and ask the exhibitors questions about their calf.... if the exhibitor actually cared for the calf, they should have no trouble answering questions about when, how much, and what they fed.  Yep, I think I might be on to something!"

I am pretty sure in your example, that the Faber's still would win.  They can flat get one ready...
 

DakotaCow

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Nov 25, 2008
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Show Heifer said:
First off, it wasn't a $15000 clone, it cost way more if you add in the 8 full clone sibs that DID NOT MAKE IT, yet cost the same to "develop".  If you figure that in, it was more like a $100,000 animal.  But since fabers basically are trans ova, then it was actually probably free. Only you and I are paying for it through their fees and "grant programs" (if they take any government money). 

The cost of cloning a calf involves not only seperating and freezing the cell line, but also the collection of oocytes and then transfering genetic material into them. They then develop the oocytes in a milk base medium. The tricky part start now, for every live clone born they inplant 10 cows. Say for example you dump 10 embryos into cows and get 5 to stick, someone can then say that you lost 5 calves in that process. Something to think about when you wonder about the 8 full sibs that didnt make it.

 

ROMAX

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I might be wrong,and please correct me if i am but they would have had to already be in the first stages of cloning the original before he actually won in 2008?
 

afhm

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This isn't the first cloned steer to be shown at a major show.  There have been others but they didn't win the whole show so nothing was ever made of it.  And yes Romax they would have had to have already cloned the steer before he was even at the state fair that year to have had one of them to show this year.  I fact he was probably about a 30-60 day pregnancy by fair time that year.  I for one thing Faber's should be commended for coming out and saying the steer was a clone way back at validation time and never trying to hide the fact that he was like many others probably would.
 

ZNT

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afhm said:
I for one thing Faber's should be commended for coming out and saying the steer was a clone way back at validation time and never trying to hide the fact that he was like many others probably would.

This could also be considered "advertising" for their business.  I am sure this win will drum up some pretty good business.
 

bob b

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Aug 10, 2010
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AFHM:  Thank you, for finally saying what a bunch of us have been thinking.  The Fabers took a risk from the start since they didn't even know the first one would be champion when the embryo was implanted on the current calf.....much less all the details involved. I have competed against them for years and frankly, you better come ready if you want to beat them because we always knew they would be.  I thought the way the Iowa State Fair and the Fabers handled it was pretty cool. And no, I don't resent that they beat me, that calf was the best one out there that day.

bob
 
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Aug 29, 2010
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I would have to disagree...as I understand it they didn't notify show officials until the day after it won mainly I am sure because of the food safety thing (although it would still be safe to eat.) What gets me is that Dave Faber says they brought it to the fair to show the benefits and highlights of cloning etc....well if that was truly the case why didn't they do it right away before the show so more people could admire and take note of the steer for that very fact...by the time they announced it most of the exhibitors had already left.  Just another example of someone trying to come up with a smooth correct answer after the fact in hopes of lessing the severity of the problem.  Bottom line is they weren't totally straightforward right off the bat is how I see it.
 

sam1988

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Feb 23, 2010
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emergency shoe shine.....you must live under a rock.  everyone in the barn knew he was a clone and have known since expo.  He may not be the first clone shown, but the first one everyone knew about. 
 

pwm

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Aug 12, 2010
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Emergency Shoe Shine:  I am going to respectfully disagree with you on this one. I am the parent of a 4-Her and I can tell you that we also don't have to announce if a calf is an embryo transfer calf, an IVF calf or a calf produced with sexed semen.  Nor do you have to announce that your calf was produced using semen from one of the Heatwave clones as I sure most of them are.  The Faber's announced it when it was appropriate and I give them credit for doing so. 
PWM
 

gw197510

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Feb 23, 2010
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I don't mean to be sarcastik but isn't it kind of hard to notify the Sale of Champions "before" you have won the show?
 

OH Breeder

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tj1993 said:
Show hiefer;  you wrote "As far as the "management" question cloning would actually be a very interesting and useful tool... take a group of 20 clones, give each exhibitor a calf, then in 10 months have a show. May the best manager win.....  kinda like that idea myself! Oh, and ask the exhibitors questions about their calf.... if the exhibitor actually cared for the calf, they should have no trouble answering questions about when, how much, and what they fed.  Yep, I think I might be on to something!"

I am pretty sure in your example, that the Faber's still would win.  They can flat get one ready...

That is exactly what I said just the other day. YOu can take a $1000 calf and a $10000 calf and I can gurantee you that someone can make a 10K look like a 1000 in real hurry if they don't do it right.
Recently they had a show on cloning on animal planet or one of the dicovery channels. The information that was presented said as you make more copies the cost of cloning goes down. The more copies you make the cheaper it is. Personally I think it would get boring. I like the excitement of seeing how your matings turned out when matching sires to cows. Its like Christmas during calving season.
 

DTW

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Mar 9, 2009
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Well i for one dont want someone cloning a calf i raise and sell.  If you figure out how hard it is to raise a great one and someone just buys it and starts cloning that animal.  Takes alot of the guess work on breeding decisions out of the window.
And hurts business when dont have repeat customers. 
If this one was done to show what cloning can do why was it such a secret all year long that some of us people figured out.

Wonder if they are advertising the clones they have for sale this year?
 

iowabeef

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Aug 24, 2009
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Good point DTW.....if the purpose was to promote cloning, why wasn't it made public during expo so that every time they went out and showed they could "promote" the benefits of cloning.  The rumors were rampant all season long that they were clones but nothing official until the sale of champions. 
 

Sammy

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May 15, 2009
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Interesting points all around - to me the "genie is now out of the bottle" and technology moves on - it is a very competitive business (aka youth 4-H/FFA activity) and people will use various forms of technology to advance progress - started with AI then embryo transplant and now cloning - with there being so many variables the offspring do differ - but I really don't think that cloning will make a difference in steer shows in the long run - styles change and a steer type that wins today will probably not win a few years from now - look at photos from 5 or 10 years ago  and who knows what they will look like 5 to 10 years from now - perhaps a little larger framed and maybe not as thick?

 
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