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Offline forcheyhawk

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2010, 09:30:12 AM »
The people that I've heard discuss it wasn't concerned as much with the food chain as they were with the message that we continually send to our young people by constantly pushing the limits of acceptability to WIN.  I've heard the same conversations about some of the classes having 1/2 million dollars worth of animals in them.  Honestly, I don't care how people with money choose to spend their money.  That's out of my control, but I can see the side of the argument that is being made.  These types of things don't just happen in cattle.  Kids today are faced with this in sports and everything else they do too.  I don't have any answers here and I'm on the fence about whether cloning show steers is right or wrong from a values standpoint.  I do think these discussions are worth having though because while this may be one of the 1st (if not the first) show steer to be cloned that won a championship, I can guarantee now it won't be the last.  So if something was to be done, now is the time to consider it.

Offline CattleWiz

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2010, 09:50:58 AM »
I find it hard, believing that people will stop practicing things we've done for century's. I think cloning is a great asset to the cattle industry but doesn't allow for the maximum growth potential or quality improvement rates that we already see. Cloning could slow this down, which makes me believe people will continue to find the next big mating. Through our selective type breeding today I think showing a clone isn't a sure win. Those of you that saw the ISF steer show should of noticed how many good steers were in the div. 2. Faber's class had the grand and res. I thought the 3 place steer in that class was worthy of a top 5. Plus there were a lot of other good steers in the other classes of that div. I don't see cloned steers having that big of an impact because their not the next new mating or style of calf.

Offline oakbar

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2010, 10:35:50 AM »
Interesting editorial by the New York Times on Aug. 26th called "The Looking Glass Steer".   They did make a typo on Faber's name but overall a pretty balanced article for a major city newspaper.   I particularlly like their closing paragraph--

"And yet Doc has been useful.   A cloned steer highlights the peculiar limitation of cloning, as opposed to ordinary reproduction.  Cloning can only ever replicate what is, while biological breeding-- even with artificial insemination and embryo transplants common in the cattle industry--continues to offer what hasn't yet been."
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Offline hntwhitetail

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2010, 12:03:36 PM »
Interesting editorial by the New York Times on Aug. 26th called "The Looking Glass Steer".   They did make a typo on Faber's name but overall a pretty balanced article for a major city newspaper.   I particularlly like their closing paragraph--

"And yet Doc has been useful.   A cloned steer highlights the peculiar limitation of cloning, as opposed to ordinary reproduction.  Cloning can only ever replicate what is, while biological breeding-- even with artificial insemination and embryo transplants common in the cattle industry--continues to offer what hasn't yet been."


good quote

Offline gw197510

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2010, 12:15:48 PM »
Lets be real folks, the argument that you can't compete against a $20,000 clone or that this makes it for rich is totally bogus.  For starters, there have been steers showing for years that were purchased for more than $40,000.  In am guessing the clone may have been the cheapest steer in the top 5 in his class!  The simple fact is that many families are out there trying to buy the calf that gives them the best chance to win and they are willing to pay alot for that chance.

Offline forcheyhawk

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2010, 01:03:56 PM »
If I was Fabers, I would clone that same steer until someone beats it.  Why the heck not?  It's not against the rules.  Be kind of funny if they went on a 5 year winning streak with a clone of the 2008 champ.  Watch that $15000 steer take down $40-50,000 steers year after year.  Wonder how that would change the landscape?  Be interesting to watch from the sidelines.  Be interesting if that would change anyone's tune about it.  Meanwhile, I'm still on the fence about if it's right or wrong.  I can see both sides.

Offline Show Heifer

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2010, 01:55:26 PM »
First off, it wasn't a $15000 clone, it cost way more if you add in the 8 full clone sibs that DID NOT MAKE IT, yet cost the same to "develop".  If you figure that in, it was more like a $100,000 animal.  But since fabers basically are trans ova, then it was actually probably free. Only you and I are paying for it through their fees and "grant programs" (if they take any government money). 

The quote is a good one. If the same animal can win in the show ring 2 years later, 5 years later, 10 years later, it means the beef breeding programs are stagnant and going nowhere, which is a fast track to the bankers window and even a faster track to the city employment line due to bankrupcy on the farm.

Can cloning be done? Yes. SHOULD it be done? Not so sure. There are a lot of things that CAN be done that SHOULDN'T be done.

As far as the "management" question cloning would actually be a very interesting and useful tool... take a group of 20 clones, give each exhibitor a calf, then in 10 months have a show. May the best manager win.....  kinda like that idea myself!
Oh, and ask the exhibitors questions about their calf.... if the exhibitor actually cared for the calf, they should have no trouble answering questions about when, how much, and what they fed.  Yep, I think I might be on to something!

You had tthe right not display your lack of command of the english language. Too bad you have chosen not to. - Brit, senior student

Offline oakbar

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2010, 02:07:09 PM »
I'll bet there have been clones shown at the ISF before--they just didn't win!!
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Offline tj1993

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2010, 03:10:02 PM »
Show hiefer;  you wrote "As far as the "management" question cloning would actually be a very interesting and useful tool... take a group of 20 clones, give each exhibitor a calf, then in 10 months have a show. May the best manager win.....  kinda like that idea myself! Oh, and ask the exhibitors questions about their calf.... if the exhibitor actually cared for the calf, they should have no trouble answering questions about when, how much, and what they fed.  Yep, I think I might be on to something!"

I am pretty sure in your example, that the Faber's still would win.  They can flat get one ready...
 

Offline DakotaCow

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2010, 07:15:01 PM »
First off, it wasn't a $15000 clone, it cost way more if you add in the 8 full clone sibs that DID NOT MAKE IT, yet cost the same to "develop".  If you figure that in, it was more like a $100,000 animal.  But since fabers basically are trans ova, then it was actually probably free. Only you and I are paying for it through their fees and "grant programs" (if they take any government money). 

The cost of cloning a calf involves not only seperating and freezing the cell line, but also the collection of oocytes and then transfering genetic material into them. They then develop the oocytes in a milk base medium. The tricky part start now, for every live clone born they inplant 10 cows. Say for example you dump 10 embryos into cows and get 5 to stick, someone can then say that you lost 5 calves in that process. Something to think about when you wonder about the 8 full sibs that didnt make it.


Offline ROMAX

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2010, 08:33:12 PM »
I might be wrong,and please correct me if i am but they would have had to already be in the first stages of cloning the original before he actually won in 2008?
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Offline afhm

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2010, 08:41:04 AM »
This isn't the first cloned steer to be shown at a major show.  There have been others but they didn't win the whole show so nothing was ever made of it.  And yes Romax they would have had to have already cloned the steer before he was even at the state fair that year to have had one of them to show this year.  I fact he was probably about a 30-60 day pregnancy by fair time that year.  I for one thing Faber's should be commended for coming out and saying the steer was a clone way back at validation time and never trying to hide the fact that he was like many others probably would.

Offline ZNT

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2010, 09:08:39 AM »
I for one thing Faber's should be commended for coming out and saying the steer was a clone way back at validation time and never trying to hide the fact that he was like many others probably would.

This could also be considered "advertising" for their business.  I am sure this win will drum up some pretty good business.
Winning isn't everything, but you have to want it.

Offline bob b

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Re: Here comes the fallout from the clone.
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2010, 09:59:35 AM »
AFHM:  Thank you, for finally saying what a bunch of us have been thinking.  The Fabers took a risk from the start since they didn't even know the first one would be champion when the embryo was implanted on the current calf.....much less all the details involved. I have competed against them for years and frankly, you better come ready if you want to beat them because we always knew they would be.  I thought the way the Iowa State Fair and the Fabers handled it was pretty cool. And no, I don't resent that they beat me, that calf was the best one out there that day.

bob

Offline Emergency Shoe Shine

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HUH???
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2010, 04:32:01 PM »
I would have to disagree...as I understand it they didn't notify show officials until the day after it won mainly I am sure because of the food safety thing (although it would still be safe to eat.) What gets me is that Dave Faber says they brought it to the fair to show the benefits and highlights of cloning etc....well if that was truly the case why didn't they do it right away before the show so more people could admire and take note of the steer for that very fact...by the time they announced it most of the exhibitors had already left.   Just another example of someone trying to come up with a smooth correct answer after the fact in hopes of lessing the severity of the problem.  Bottom line is they weren't totally straightforward right off the bat is how I see it.

 

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