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Offline Heritage Shorthorn

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2020, 11:14:20 AM »
XBARs question is complicated.  To my knowledge PHA and DS have never been detected in a Heritage Shorthorn nor has the E226X MYO mutation  There is a well known case of TH popping up in the Clipper King USA line but establishing where it came from has been difficult.  TH has never been detected in any other Heritage Shorthorn.  MYO is a more difficult issue because of the many different mutations of MYO.  The F94L MYO mutation has been found in a Heritage Shorthorn line but it is impossible, at this point, to say where it came from.  The possibility exists that there was a separate F94L mutation in Shorthorns.  The difficultly lies in the lack of DNA samples to work with in Shorthorns from more than 80 years ago.  The existence of Shorthorn semen samples today from as far back as 70 years ago is helpful but do not necessarily answer all the MYO questions.  Because of the possibility of a mutation occurring at any point within a cattle breed, the testing of Heritage Shorthorns for TH, PHA, DS, and MYO can not be the only determinant of purity.  The Heritage Shorthorn Society recommends that all Shorthorn bulls be tested for the four genetic conditions.  Unfortunately no one can be sure about what went on behind the barn 100 years ago let alone last week.

Offline knabe

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2020, 11:35:56 AM »
So. Use what you want, and if they happen to have a defect, test for it and screen.
"The generation that told us to question authority, has now become the Authority we cannot question!"

Offline Willow Springs

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2020, 11:50:37 AM »
Actually the E226X MYO mutation in Western Canadian pedigrees is believed to originate with a cow that by pedigree would qualify as Native. Pedigree link below.

https://csa.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=F624382&member_id=

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2020, 02:12:10 PM »
Actually the E226X MYO mutation in Western Canadian pedigrees is believed to originate with a cow that by pedigree would qualify as Native. Pedigree link below.

https://csa.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=F624382&member_id=

The pedigree is wrong

Offline knabe

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2020, 02:37:29 PM »
where.


the association should sequence the region around the mutation, compare against all animals from all breeds, declare it came from where ever and throw the animal out of registry.


do this over and over.


shouldn't be too hard. one can find all sorts of breeds in other breeds now.

"The generation that told us to question authority, has now become the Authority we cannot question!"

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2020, 04:04:52 PM »
where.


the association should sequence the region around the mutation, compare against all animals from all breeds, declare it came from where ever and throw the animal out of registry.


do this over and over.


shouldn't be too hard. one can find all sorts of breeds in other breeds now.

What would be the incentive for an association that generates income based on volume of registrations to take any measure to minimize or limit access to said registry?    Thats the problem.  All but the Angus and Hereford associations have essentially sold their soles to the devil by opening the herd books and making not breed purity but rather revenue  the motive for their existence.

Offline Willow Springs

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2020, 04:10:12 PM »
Yes the rumours say that the pedigree is wrong, but I haven't read or heard someone say so definitively. Rumours are sometimes true and other times people just spouting off that they heard from a guy who talked to a guy.

Actually the E226X MYO mutation in Western Canadian pedigrees is believed to originate with a cow that by pedigree would qualify as Native. Pedigree link below.

https://csa.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=F624382&member_id=

The pedigree is wrong

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2020, 04:31:54 PM »
Yes the rumours say that the pedigree is wrong, but I haven't read or heard someone say so definitively. Rumours are sometimes true and other times people just spouting off that they heard from a guy who talked to a guy.

Actually the E226X MYO mutation in Western Canadian pedigrees is believed to originate with a cow that by pedigree would qualify as Native. Pedigree link below.

https://csa.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=F624382&member_id=

The pedigree is wrong

Maybe knabe can help me here Are there any verified examples of an exact same mutation occurring in two separate populations?

My thoughts are no.

And with that said, the only viable explanation is that the pedigree is wrong and the cow in question is in fact  a crossbred Maine Anjou.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2020, 05:38:30 PM »
So. Use what you want, and if they happen to have a defect, test for it and screen./// Absolutely-thats how some really good clean cattle evolved from carriers-breed em to a clean one O0

Offline beebe

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2020, 08:32:18 PM »
Based on what I have been reading and learning lately the F94l variant is also called the profit gene as it improves cutability without adding any calving difficulty.  So if it occurs in native Shorthorns why is it a bad thing?

Offline Willow Springs

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2020, 10:29:37 PM »
I guess it is a chicken and egg thing. Durham Shorthorns were used to create the Maine Anjou breed. Do they know if the the Durhams brought the Myo into the Maines, or if it existed in the French breed that was crossed with the Durhams? This statement from a scientific paper would seem to answer that question - "The double muscling syndrome was first documented some 200 years ago in Durham cattle by the Englishman, George Culley (1804)". Thus the reason the Durham cattle were used to create Belgian Blue and likely why the Maine Anjou cattle carry it. Hard to say that because an animal carries Myostatin it must have an incorrect pedigree.

Yes the rumours say that the pedigree is wrong, but I haven't read or heard someone say so definitively. Rumours are sometimes true and other times people just spouting off that they heard from a guy who talked to a guy.

Actually the E226X MYO mutation in Western Canadian pedigrees is believed to originate with a cow that by pedigree would qualify as Native. Pedigree link below.

https://csa.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&search_value=&animal_registration=F624382&member_id=

The pedigree is wrong

Maybe knabe can help me here Are there any verified examples of an exact same mutation occurring in two separate populations?

My thoughts are no.

And with that said, the only viable explanation is that the pedigree is wrong and the cow in question is in fact  a crossbred Maine Anjou.

Offline Hopster1000

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2020, 04:28:12 AM »
I guess it is a chicken and egg thing. Durham Shorthorns were used to create the Maine Anjou breed. Do they know if the the Durhams brought the Myo into the Maines, or if it existed in the French breed that was crossed with the Durhams? This statement from a scientific paper would seem to answer that question - "The double muscling syndrome was first documented some 200 years ago in Durham cattle by the Englishman, George Culley (1804)". Thus the reason the Durham cattle were used to create Belgian Blue and likely why the Maine Anjou cattle carry it. Hard to say that because an animal carries Myostatin it must have an incorrect pedigree.

The general consensus in the UK is that the Shorthorn always had the myostatin gene and it was more likely that Maine Anjou and Belgian Blue got the myostatin gene from the shorthorns than the other way around.
Even looking at some old black and white pictures the muscle definition on one or two bulls (that would have been native bred) would lend you to think myostatin was present. Now, as to which variant originated in the Shorthorn breed it is hard to say. Most breeds have more than one variant, as in Shorthorn. The F94L variant is most common in Limousin cattle, but they obviously have other types also.

Offline librarian

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2020, 08:32:31 AM »
For those interested in using Heritage Shorthorn to add rib and reduce height in your existing herd ( of any breed, but in particular "mainstream" Shorthorn).
I have just been up to DMH cattle to look at the 2019 bull calves. Ordinarily many of these calves would have gone to be developed for the Galbreath sale, but this year they remained on the farm. This group is sired by a Leader 6th son, a Catalyst 20 son and a Kodiak son. I am not exaggerating to say this group of calves had more depth and rib than whatever else is out there. Those who know how excellent the CCL6th daughters are will see the usefulness of using one of these Leader 6th grandsons back on them.
I direct those who have interest in short red bulls to Morning Glory by Titanic.
However,it was the Cat 20 grandsons that I liked best. The pictures on the DMH website and the Heritage Shorthorn site are not comprehensive or up to date and do not even begin to represent their type changing quality.
I came home with a Cat 20 grandson (Felix) and a Cat 20 granddaughter out of a Maverick daughter out of a Minn Max daughter. Four heifers are at the Iowa feed trial. This is just a heads up to you guys that this is a good year for outstanding breeding combinations if you have a Heritage influenced program.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 08:45:07 AM by librarian »
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

Offline knabe

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2020, 08:49:54 AM »
There are regions in genome that are sensitive to mutation.

Its not out of the question that multiple spontaneous mutations could occur in the same gene at the same spot.

Odds are probably affected by whether its a transition or transversion mutation.

Its not clear yet I dont think why different areas of the genome are susceptible to mutation from whatever like x-rays, UV, replication errors.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 09:04:36 AM by knabe »
"The generation that told us to question authority, has now become the Authority we cannot question!"

Offline librarian

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Re: Heritage/Native Shorthorn Bull Listing
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2020, 08:58:47 AM »
I also came home with a white Leader 6th grandson. This animal was longer bodied than anything else in the pen and lighter boned. None of the other L6th grandsons were built this way.  I have to admit their is something in him that makes me think of Whitehall Sultan, and my hope is that he will be an outstanding  A2 cowmaker for my Blue Grey program of Galloway crosses.
'Those who do not understand the old will not understand the new'. -farmers quote

 

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