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Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2019, 08:51:43 PM »
EPDS are only as accurate as the integrity of those report them. The Shorthorn breed has been drowning for years as far as real world usage-even though there are a few very serious breeders who are making a huge (and largely unheralded effort to correct some very basic problems through years of hard work and accurate documentation) My hats off these obviously are not all of them-Toby Jordan,Keith Lauer,Dale Allison,Byland, Jungels , Paint Valley and JMO the largest loss of a breeder as far as functional cattle that could also show Kevin Kimmerling  Unfortunately the show cattle EPDS might as well in a large part be picked from bouncing balls like the lottery. The most glaring example is a 0 BW EPD National show winning female Sired by SULL SALUTE ON A CF SOLUTION FEMALE THAT PROBABLY GOES BACK TO THESE FUNCTIONAL COMMERCIALLY APPEALING GENTICS AGAIN. I DO NOT SEE WITH ALL YOUR MONEY,SUCCESS, AND LUCK HOW YOU MR BIGSHOT COULD THINK EVEN THE MOST TRUE BELIEVING HANDRUBBING WANNA BE LEMMING THAT HAS MADE YOU WEALTHY WOULD BUY THAT SH%^&*)_T-OR YOU COULD WITH ANY KIND OF CONSCIENCE SQUANDER YOUR LIMITED CREDIBILTY LIKE A COMMON SHOP LIFTER AND ANY BREED SECRETARY THAT WOULD ALLOW EPDS LIKE THIS TO EXIST IN A STRUGGLING BREED SHOULD BE FIRED-GET MY DRIFT MR SOULES-THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT WORK HARD AND DESERVE SOME INTEGRITY-NOT JUST THE FAT CATS-NO PUN INTENDED O0
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 09:11:04 PM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline justintime

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Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2019, 07:17:59 AM »
I have no ideas what is wrong with you Ryan. It must be a pretty sad existence to have to live such a negative life. You don't have to believe me, I really don't care. I actually just got another 20 straws of Fire Storm since I posted the last post so I now have got 110 straws. The main reason I am using Fire Storm is that embryos sired by him are selling quickly. I have a partner in England who owns 10 donors with me. He tells me the Fire Storm embryos were the first to sell out. I have found the same thing. In regards to flushing cows, yes, I usually flush my donors at least twice, some 7-8 times before they come back home and get bred again. Right now, I have 7 cows at the ET center,  and I often have one or two more there. Why would I do this? Probably because I have made selling embryos a big part of my business. I just passed selling 2400 embryos in the fall of 2018 and they have gone to 14 countries. I am not bragging, it is a fact. There is a market for Shorthorn embryos if you work at developing a market. Two years ago, I sold the first Shorthorn genetics from North America to Costa Rica. I have recently got emails from Argentina, Chile and Sweden regarding Shorthorn embryos. I am doing it differently that most are, in that I do not concentrate on American show genetics. I will use them occasionally, but most of the time, I try to offer different genetics than most others do. My embryo inventory just arrived two days ago from the ET center and I have 358 embryos and have 3 more flushes in the next week. You  may be surprised to know that I just sold a set of 30 Shorthorn embryos to a guy in Texas. He has never owned a Shorthorn before.
I only commented on Fire Storm because I think he is a pretty good bull. I have not heard of any calving issues, but like any bull, use your head when you use him.
I have often heard that it is people who that are less successful than you are, who will attack you and that people more successful than you, will not. If this is true, you must be less successful than most any other breeder, because I have seen you attack most everyone. Unlike you, I will cheer for a good animal, regardless of it's breeding and regardless of who owns it, whenever I see one.
In regards to Bayview Unique K11, time will tell but from what I am hearing from Australia, he is going a good job. If you happened to even read what I said about him, I said that one breeder in Australia bred a group 70 heifers, and half were bred to Unique and half were bred to a calving ease trait leader. He said that there was no noticeable different is calving problems from each bull. I then said, until we see how he does in North America, I am not going to call him a bull to use on heifers. I had two young couples from Australia visit me 6 weeks ago, and they were very high on this bull and they said he looks far more impressive in real life, even in the severe drought they are experiencing. I have not seen the bull myself, but he is getting good reviews and I felt he offers some newer genetics. Time will tell if he works here, and if he doesn't, I will dump his semen. I am not going to lose my farm if I have to do so. So Ryan... please grow up!  I wish you would realize that you are hurting yourself more than you could ever hurt me by doing this.
One of the nice things about this business is that we don't have to use the same sires as anyone else. Ryan, you don't ever have to use Fire Storm, and quite frankly, I hope you don't. Just last night, I got an email from a guy who has just started calving and he mentioned that he has had 3 Fire Storm calves this week and they look very good. He didn't mention anything about calving problems, he just said his 3 calves looked very good and  that he was waiting for 2 more to arrive. He said he will be using more of him this year. And the reason for his email, was to ask me some questions on the Fire Storm embryos I have in our online embryo sale coming up later this month.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 07:50:22 AM by justintime »
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

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Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2019, 09:50:18 AM »
Looks like a permanent case of buyers remorse and continuation of some earlier tantrums-XBAR is plenty smart enough to research breeding etc-and he made some valid points  supported by this-But he bought one that just didnt work on his genetics So did another guy in Texas-Which although the ones remarked about are performance cattle-appear to have some of the  the "low BW" Enticer Gold and maybe Byland Dazzler related breeding back there-which can be pretty adverse with some lines sometimes.  Thats the beginning of it-I do remember you stating that not everything out of Major Leroy was moderate at birth "and that you can get some big ones once in awhile out of him"-from what Ive heard here and there on my own-Better breed him to (hopefully) low BW genetics and or big cows down here-or make preparations for a train wreck That being said-the BWs are higher and the cows bigger up in Canada so a 100 pound calf is not a cow killer up there and probably more the norm Ive seen tons of bulls etc on sales up there with BWS over 100 pounds and the long and short is that Leroy at least through related experiences of a number of breeders-is a hard calving bull period. I think thats reflected in his EPDS-which I DO NOT SEE ON A GROUP OF US SHOW BULLS THAT ARE KNOWN COW KILLERS -in reality there are certainly alot of 100 pound calves down here too if they are shaped right and out of a cow with a large enough birth canalO0

Offline woodyc

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Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2019, 04:00:38 PM »
I am not hearing any horror stories about calving problems from Fire Storm here in Canada. Of course, if there are birth weight issues, the sires almost always gets the blame. A few years ago, I purchased some semen from a well known calving ease trait leader, and I used a few straws. I had two bull calves born and I castrated both because they were over my own rule of any bull calf over 110 lbs gets banded at birth no matter how good they are. These two calves were the only two I banded in that calf crop. I don't think it was only because of the sire.  I wish we could have an easier way to discuss calving ease besides by using birth weights. Birth weights are a component of calving ease, but as a leading cattle buyer said to me, " if I wanted lighter birth weights, the first thing I would do is select genetics that would produce shorter bodied calves". To me, this makes some sense. I have been told that taking 1 inch out of the rib of a new born calf represents 8-10 lbs, I have never been able to find research to prove if this is correct or not, but one person told me that Oregon State did some research that found this to be true.
Getting back to Fire Storm, I am pretty sure that we would be hearing about the horror stories if they were happening out there. So far, I have heard none. In regards to his sire, Waco, I looked back in my calving records and I have had 8 Waco sired calves born here. All unassisted with BWs of 90-102 lbs.


would a longer calf not be easier born than a deeper bodied calf?  i suppose its all about balance in everything

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2019, 05:06:28 PM »
I agree with that-but the hardest pulls ive seen were thick blocky calves that were too wide for the female attempting to have the calf O0

Offline Duncraggan

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Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2019, 02:16:28 PM »

Specifically what SH breed traits will this bull improve?  Birthweight, calving ease, fleshing ability, milk, marbling, fertility?  Because I have a pretty middle of the road herd of cows and this bulls infusion would worsen each of these traits I mentioned.  So again Ill ask: what would this breed improver  be improving?
With all due respect, I must stand up for XBAR here.  Fire Storm's January 2019 ASA EPD's are not impressive for me and I would also question what 'breed improver' traits he would bring to my herd.
Phenotypically he is very impressive though!

Offline idalee

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Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2019, 05:47:25 PM »
Fire Storm's EPD information is genomicaly enhanced which significantly increases accuracy and reduces the effect of cherry picking progeny.   Furthermore,  there are only 13 calves actually recorded so far.   When you look carefully at his EPD information,  he is clearly a below average bull.    For Growth and Maternal,  only 42% of traits are above breed average.   For Intake and Carcass traits,  all five are minus,  and when you look at the index values,  $CEZ is less than 20,  and $BMI is only slightly above 113.   

Offline beebe

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Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2019, 06:20:56 PM »
Do you have a lot of confidence in genomic testing of Shorthorn cattle?

Offline Medium Rare

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Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2019, 07:39:39 PM »
Do you have a lot of confidence in genomic testing of Shorthorn cattle?

Now there's a topic for a new thread.

Add recent epd movement to the topic and it could get interesting.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2019, 07:52:40 PM »
Good points beebe and Medium-CONSIDER THE SOURCE O0

Offline idalee

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Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2019, 02:54:07 PM »
I do use EPD in my breeding decisions.   Not as a last word,  but as a tool.   Furthermore,  I can see in some of my embryo purchases that I should have used that tool  a lot more!   Secondly,  when a result is substantially the same from two disparate processes,  that tends to validate both processes.   So,  yes I have some level of confidence in genomic testing of Shorthorn cattle and that confidence will increase as more and more cattle are tested.   That goes directly to the heifer incentive program recently offered by ASA.   Genomic EPD enhancements have the power to increase both the accuracy and honesty of EPD evaluations.  In regards calving ease,  it would appear that the $CEZ is more useful than any of the individual components of that index by themselves.       

Offline aj

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Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2019, 06:54:29 PM »
My God......cutting all bulls with a birth weight over 110 pounds? That is so noble.....bahahahahahahahah. You guys live in a completely different world than the one in the high plains of the United States. To each area his own I guess. Bahahahahahahahah
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2019, 07:38:37 PM »
I thought the Hi plains were in Colorado or something-my bad there dont seem to be any in Colorado My bad you must be taking about Dunkirk Iowa or something O0

Offline aj

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Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2019, 08:34:23 AM »
The high plains includes all or some of the following states.Nebraska, Colorado, Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, South Dakota and Wyoming and Kansas. Essentially the top cow\calf producing states in the United States.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 08:36:53 AM by aj »
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline justintime

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Re: Hill Haven Fire Storm 28C
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2019, 09:24:17 AM »
Guys and girls.. I have no dog in this hunt. I just gave you my honest opinions on Fire Storm. I have talked with several people who have calves on the ground from him, and not one of them has made any comments about calving issues. If you don't want to use him, that is perfectly fine. If you don't like his EPDs, that is perfectly fine as well. Personally, I think Shorthorn EPDs are moving in the right direction, but I don't think they are where they need to be yet. I used a bull here a few years ago, that many of you bashed very hard. I used him because he had the most performance of any bull I have ever produced and did this with a modest BW. I was bashed almost beyond belief, but I felt this bull deserved as chance to be used. He sired 5 calf crops here and I did not assist a single calf born from him. 99% of his bulls went to commercial cattlemen, and I did not have a single complaint about calving issues. Not a single one. After his 3rd calf crop I contacted the ASA as I was told his EPDs would improve over time. I had not helped a single calf to be born, but his EPDs had barely moved, I was told that they would definitely move as more data was sent in. I continued to send in my data and they still hardly moved. One of my best bull customers is still using 2 sons of this bull and he runs 400 cows and calves on grass. He recently told me he hopes he can use these two bulls for few more years especially since their daughters have come into production. If I had listened to all the doom and gloom some of you here had given me, I would have not used a very important breeding bull here that did an excellent job. I retained a son of him that was even better than his sire. I sold him as a 8 year old bull last year and I am now working on selling all the semen left on him to another breeder. The European and Australian semen rights have been sold as well. I think we have to use our heads when breeding cattle as well as any other tool we have available. I think both these bulls helped improve my herd, and their genetics are now being used all over the world. If I had just listened to the wisdom provided on Steerplanet, I would have missed out on some of the best breeding bulls I have ever owned. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but we all have to use our heads in breeding better cattle... not just emotions.
In regards to my banding any calf over 110 lbs, that was a BW I picked for no apparent reason many years ago. It was a place to start.  I was planning to move it lower if it was too high based on any issues that arose. I have not had any complaints from over 400 bulls sold since I set this as my high mark for BW. I prefer my bulls to be less than 100 lbs and most are in the 90 lb range. In our environment, I have started to tell bull customers that if their cows cannot have a 90 lb calf on their own, they better sell their cows and buy some that will. I have very good friends that raise Angus cattle, and I cannot believe the number of calves they have that are over 100 lbs at birth. With all this in mind, I think we would be better off, if we started talking more about calving ease as opposed to just talking about birth weights. Birth weights are part of the equation but so is calving ease.
Getting back to Fire Storm, I have absolutely no interest in him, other than I like the bull. I have seen his dam many times and she is the type of female that most of us would agree than any good bull should have. She is a beautiful female with an outstanding record of producing good offspring. That is all I know. Time will tell and I am quite sure we will know a lot more within the next few months, as more calves from Fire Storm are born. Right now, all I know is I like a lot of things this bull offers. I know a lot of people are using him. I know that embryos sired by him are selling fast to breeders in many countries. We will know soon if all these people are completely mad in using him! 
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and bad breath!
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity
If love is blind... why is lingerie so popular?
The only thing worse than an idiot ... is an educated idiot!

 

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