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Offline Willow Springs

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Hot Commodity & Evolution
« on: October 08, 2019, 09:56:59 AM »
When looking through sale catalogues and watching videos these cattle appeal to me more than the other show type genetics. They seem to have a bit more depth of body and cowiness while still having eye appeal. They have been around a few years so there should be a bunch of daughters around. How are they working as cows and what are udders/teats and milk flow like?

Offline Doc

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Re: Hot Commodity & Evolution
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2019, 05:15:15 AM »
The HC daughters I have seen and been involved with as cows, I've been very pleased with. As any, you can have some outliers, but as a whole I think they are doing good.
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong
enough to take everything you have.   -- Thomas Jefferson

Offline idalee

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Re: Hot Commodity & Evolution
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2019, 08:53:20 AM »
Does anybody have a "real" picture of Hot Commodity?   That is,  a picture in working clothes out in a pasture.    I understand this is a show cattle discussion group,  but real pictures of real cattle are more useful when making breeding decisions.   Also,  I would like to see pictures of Hot Commodity daughters in pasture conditions. 

Offline Medium Rare

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Re: Hot Commodity & Evolution
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2019, 09:40:57 AM »
Sull uses this picture of Hot Commodity somewhat regularly.

Offline Dale

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Re: Hot Commodity & Evolution
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2019, 04:16:55 PM »
When I saw Hot Commodity on pasture, maybe in 2017 in Iowa (so he was old), he looked quite good--HC has no holes in him.  Denny Jordan used to have 40 HC daughters, and that was several years after the bull left Jordan Acres; they get the job done.  We have had a couple first calf HC daughters calve this fall, both unassisted.  Our 3 HC daughters in production, with another due later on, all have acceptable udders and their teats are no problem.  Milk production is sufficient and could be above average according to HC's EPD's. 

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Hot Commodity & Evolution
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2019, 05:25:03 PM »
I personally think that although they are very good looking show cattle-Bulls like Evolution are touted as calving ease when his dam is the farthest thing from it-He has all the Solution et al genetics right there-Hot Commodity is really a good bull-But he is not going to change cattle like that in one generation from 4-6 plus bws to 1 or below JMO-the two bulls I know of that should continue his basic traits are: Dales bull-Homeplace Hot Commodity FORGOT DOCS BULL-he has sired some good ones-and Cagwins Onward bull-who I dont think Onward is available to the teaming masses, Schrag has one too-but his dam-although a beautiful cow is a Swagger on top of something like Maxum or whatever-hes a cool looking bull-But cows only JMO-with that kind of breeding on the bottom I would never try him on a heifer O0
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 07:37:59 AM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline idalee

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Re: Hot Commodity & Evolution
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2019, 06:47:49 PM »
Thanks for the picture.   If I had seen both pictures without identification,  I would not have suspected that they were the same bull.    It is a sad comment that Hot Commodity has 1528 registered calves,   889 had birth weights,  277 had weaning weights and only 98 with yearling weights.   There is a lot of chatter on here about how Shorthorn Association doesn't do enough for the breeders.   Well,   those who live in glass  houses shouldn't cast stones!    The Association can't be faulted when breeders won't do the basics for themselves!

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Hot Commodity & Evolution
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2019, 08:31:48 PM »
Most of the show "popular cattle" breeders could care less-they seem to be most concerned about Birth WTS or was that BIRTH DATES O0

Offline idalee

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Re: Hot Commodity & Evolution
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2019, 08:56:39 AM »
" or was that BIRTH DATES"   Amen,  brother!

Offline Doc

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Re: Hot Commodity & Evolution
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2019, 08:51:56 PM »
Here are 2 cows and 1 bull that are dtrs and a son of Hot Commodity in pasture condition. The spotted cow is the Reserve Grand Female at the 2017 Jr Natl's and is nursing a May Hotwire heifer and the roan won the 2017 IN State Fair.
 The bull is triple bred calving ease with better numbers than his sire.
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong
enough to take everything you have.   -- Thomas Jefferson

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Hot Commodity & Evolution
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2019, 07:36:43 AM »
I forgot to ad him-slipped my mind Good and useful females-Find one more CE bull with the quality you want and have the best of both worlds You really should put the red bull on SEK or something-Its too much of a pain for some people in distant locales to try and find a shipper somewhere etc and buy 2 or three different bulls in small volumes to try O0
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 07:38:50 AM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Hot Commodity & Evolution
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2019, 11:14:16 AM »
Thanks for the picture.   If I had seen both pictures without identification,  I would not have suspected that they were the same bull.    It is a sad comment that Hot Commodity has 1528 registered calves,   889 had birth weights,  277 had weaning weights and only 98 with yearling weights.   There is a lot of chatter on here about how Shorthorn Association doesn't do enough for the breeders.   Well,   those who live in glass  houses shouldn't cast stones!    The Association can't be faulted when breeders won't do the basics for themselves!

Zero value in submitting data UNLESS you have calves sired by high accuracy reference sires WITHIN THE SAME CONTEMPORARY GROUP.  Without relevant sample sizes, much of what the ASA is trying to accomplish with EPDs is useless.  Even look at sire test.   Theyre doing as much bad as they are good by having contemporary groups with such minimal sample sizes and references.  They need to limit the number of bulls to about 5 so that enough calves can be born from each to produce relevant sample sizes.  Using 1 offspring within a contemporary group as a reference will result in misleading results every time.  Reality is few breeders have the ability to produce relevant sample sizes.

Additionally, Im not sure measuring terminal metrics has any benefit to those breeding shorthorns who most purposefully serve as a component of the momma cow, not the terminal sire. 

I saw HC in 2012 or so.   I dont remember him looking too much like that mature pic posted above.  I thought he more similar design wise to JPJ- but better structured.  Havent seen many offspring but the ones I have appeared to have enough capacity be to be useful.  Frequently this is the common fault with the showier lines- theyre gutless and super flat sided. You can see Evolution take on more of this form.  Id pay somebody to AI my cows to HC I wouldnt use Evo if it were free. There is no possible upside great enough to offset the birthweight risk inherent in the genetics seen on the bottom side of his pedigree.   A HC son that is solid that doc mentioned is Hotwire.  The calves Ive seen from JsF and Waukaru were all nice with that extra touch of middle SHs (as a breed) so desperately need.

-SASKVALLEY EDITOR-    -XBAR EMPIRE-    -LEVELDALE GENESIS-

Offline 764wdchev

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Re: Hot Commodity & Evolution
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2019, 01:16:51 PM »
Is JSF Hot Wire semen available?
If it was easy, everyone would succeed.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Hot Commodity & Evolution
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2019, 08:22:54 PM »
The other "most documented" HC is Dales Homeplace Hot Commodity-who has been on here in another thread Homeplace is one of the oldest "performance tested" Shorthorn herds " in the breed-and the bull sure looks the part His semen is available on Cattle Visions Anyone who has ever conversed with Dale Allison can see his strict adherence to those tenents back MANY years and an academic understanding of genetics in general  O0O0

Offline idalee

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Re: Hot Commodity & Evolution
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2019, 06:20:38 PM »
Zero value in submitting data UNLESS you have calves sired by high accuracy reference sires WITHIN THE SAME CONTEMPORARY GROUP.  Without relevant sample sizes, much of what the ASA is trying to accomplish with EPDs is useless.  Even look at sire test.   Theyre doing as much bad as they are good by having contemporary groups with such minimal sample sizes and references.  They need to limit the number of bulls to about 5 so that enough calves can be born from each to produce relevant sample sizes.  Using 1 offspring within a contemporary group as a reference will result in misleading results every time.  Reality is few breeders have the ability to produce relevant sample sizes.

Once again the,  the profundity of Mark Twain's remark is validated!

 

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