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Offline doublestuff

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??? HW or Clone???
« on: November 01, 2009, 10:43:16 AM »
I know a whole bunch of you are regularly using HW. My question to you is are you guys Using the original or a clone??? For those using clones, do you see a difference if used on the same cow you previously used the original on. I know the DNA is SUPPOSSED to be identical, but the bulls phenotypes are ALL different so I can't help but wonder. Not completely sold on the clone thing yet. The lady at lautners told me it didn't matter what clone I bought due to the fact the DNA was all the same but I cant help but want to use the one I like the looks of the best????  I guess What I really want to know is should I spend the money on the original or use a clone??? Cant help but wonder how many of the great ones advertised as HWs are actually out of clones????

Offline buckwild

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Re: ??? HW or Clone???
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2009, 11:09:29 AM »
probably the only difference is going to be semen quality.

Offline Possum Trot Ranch

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Re: ??? HW or Clone???
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2009, 11:24:58 AM »
Genetically there can be no difference but buckwild is correct: there can  be differences in semen quality from bull to bull and collection to collection.  Tell the lady when you order that you plan to use the semen to flush with and you want the highest quality collected. 

Offline j3cattleco

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Re: ??? HW or Clone???
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2009, 03:11:20 PM »
"clones, in spite of the seeming endless claims of identity, actually can be not 100% identical.  Unless both the ribosomes and the genetic dna are sequenced fully, one can never know if they are truly idendical.  the horse smart little lena was cloned, had 5 surviving babies, and two have parrot mouth.  if this gene/s were cloned, one could sequence just this gene or it's regulatory elements and look for differences.  the differences could be attributable to a few things during replication and repair at the early cell division stage.  one other thing about cloned animals is that they tend to retain the telomer length (ends of chromosomes) that the orignal animal had.  people theorize that this causes premature aging in the cloned animal.  this leads me to believe that the offsrpring from cloned animals would be interesting to look at in terms of their telomere length.  all kinds of telomere studies from all angles including aging etc.  in humans, the hunnington disease gene/s were not found until the assembly on its chromosome was finished and it was found that there was a segmental repeat of the gene.  the more copies one has, the greater the severity.  the reason it was hard to find was that assembling the gene was difficult as all the sequence piled on top of each other as it was so identical.  this probably will happen for a lot of genes.  mammals seem to have this segmental duplication thing going on, while plants have their entire genome duplicated once or even twice.  if this happens, their reproductive organs tend to be enlarged, seeds, bigger and more, at least when selected for.

Isn't it true knabe that it is the chromosomal DNA that in theory is identical (but not 100% as you say) but the mitochondrial DNA is not identical? DL"


This is from Knabe, you can search for more info if you type in clone on the search engine.
"You can have whatever you want if, you help enough other people get what they want!'  Zig Ziglar

Offline Zach

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Re: ??? HW or Clone???
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2009, 03:18:30 PM »
during development, the embryo picks up some dna from the recipient mother. so yes, there is a difference
The livestock (show) industry is a tough one- if you've never had anything worth a damn you might as well go on the internet and rundown everybody you can.

Offline Duncan Livestock

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Re: ??? HW or Clone???
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2009, 04:18:46 PM »
Is semen from clones allowed in Canada?

Offline CJC

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Re: ??? HW or Clone???
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2009, 04:58:52 PM »
probably the only difference is going to be semen quality.

From what I have heard. None of them collect worth a flip; but a guy I talked to last weekend said that he has better luck with the clones then HW him self.   
Family and friends aren't here for ever; so make as many memories as you can.

Offline Show Heifer

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Re: ??? HW or Clone???
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2009, 08:07:50 PM »
Zach, if that is true, then purebred embryos that are put into a recep cow of another breed, should not be able to be registered as the orginal embryo breed correct?
Ex. If I have some purebred red angus embryos and I put them in charlois recep cows then according to you, the calves would have some char DNA in them, and therefore not 100% red angus. 
Somehow that doesn't seem correct. I do not see how any of the recep cow DNA can get to the embryo. Explaination?
You had tthe right not display your lack of command of the english language. Too bad you have chosen not to. - Brit, senior student

Offline Zach

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Re: ??? HW or Clone???
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2009, 08:10:31 PM »
Zach, if that is true, then purebred embryos that are put into a recep cow of another breed, should not be able to be registered as the orginal embryo breed correct?
Ex. If I have some purebred red angus embryos and I put them in charlois recep cows then according to you, the calves would have some char DNA in them, and therefore not 100% red angus. 
Somehow that doesn't seem correct. I do not see how any of the recep cow DNA can get to the embryo.Explanation

Search for it. been discussed a million times. or ask knabe. :)
The livestock (show) industry is a tough one- if you've never had anything worth a damn you might as well go on the internet and rundown everybody you can.

Offline Diamond

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Re: ??? HW or Clone???
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2009, 08:34:28 PM »
clones also pick up genetic material from the embryos that are used as the clones base.
Life is short. Play Hard.

Offline knabe

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Re: ??? HW or Clone???
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2009, 08:55:02 PM »
Zach, if that is true, then purebred embryos that are put into a recep cow of another breed, should not be able to be registered as the orginal embryo breed correct?
Ex. If I have some purebred red angus embryos and I put them in charlois recep cows then according to you, the calves would have some char DNA in them, and therefore not 100% red angus. 
Somehow that doesn't seem correct. I do not see how any of the recep cow DNA can get to the embryo. Explaination?

the tissue used for cloning, ie a hole punch from the ear, is used.  the genetic material is taken out of the cell, then squirted into an embryo with it's genetic material taken out.  the animal who donated the cell, has ribosomes that are extranuclear, and are genetic material.  if i wanted to make clones, what i would do is put the genetic material into eggs of the original mother and put the embryo's in the same breed.  the ribosomes from the donor may be eventually diluted out, don't know.  also, the recip may also have an effect without changing the genetic material and have an effect on how genes are expressed which is largely unknown. environmental effect is not appreciated and further not appreciated that it can be stored.  what people probably figured out is that they needed to leave the ribosomes in there, otherwise the success rate was really low.  don't know.  also, the comment about parrot mouth in horses is proof cloning is not without change.

since genomes will be able to be sequenced for about $2k or less in a couple of years, lots more will be discovered with utility timetable as usual lagging.

Offline Show Heifer

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Re: ??? HW or Clone???
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2009, 06:47:00 AM »
Quote from Knabe: "also, the recip may also have an effect without changing the genetic material and have an effect on how genes are expressed which is largely unknown"

Now that I will believe. That statement is totally different than saying the recep will donate DNA to the clone.

But, your statement also said "put the clone embryos into cows of the same breed". So, does this happen 100% of the time? If not, how can the animals still be registered to the orginal clones breed? I am not talking about the 3 way commercial composite cattle, but the "purebred" type cattle. I am just curious that since these clones are not truly purebred due to their donor egg from cloning, how can they still be registered?
You had tthe right not display your lack of command of the english language. Too bad you have chosen not to. - Brit, senior student

Offline afhm

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Re: ??? HW or Clone???
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2009, 07:33:45 AM »
The calves are pretty much the same the only difference I noticed is the ones out of the original seem to have better hair than the clone sired ones.  I know it doesn't make sence but I noticed it on calves out of the same cow and am not the only one who believes so.

Offline chambero

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Re: ??? HW or Clone???
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2009, 09:26:26 AM »
Short story - if you are only breeding a few cows I'd suck it up and buy the original. 

I only used Heat Wave one year, but bought about half original and half Heat Wave 1 (20 straws of each).  I saw no difference in conception (which was great by the way - better conception than any bull I've ever used - up around 80%).  My only problem with Heat Wave is too many of his calves don't have enough vigor to make it when born in 100 degree heat with the way we have to manage them (they are calving out in pretty rough pastures on their own in late Aug/early Sep). 

I wouldn't be scared to use clones, but the original is probably a surer bet (relatively speaking).

Offline Hollywood27

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Re: ??? HW or Clone???
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2009, 09:34:30 AM »
Question is when you buy original now is it really original HW because there is no way to tell.  Personally I got along with Original Yellowtop and Original HW 1.  Who knows what you are getting now with over 10 clones.  Heck mark it original with a mixed bag of all clones.  JMHO

 

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