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Author Topic: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway  (Read 11072 times)

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2019, 01:47:50 PM »
Any negative as construed by whom? I would think :and stated that an 85 or 90 pound calf by that young bull out of a US bred female would be fine and more or less expected -Especially if it ended up being made like him In fact- my first reaction was that a great number of Canadian buyers may not think he has the performance because ALOT calves are above 100 pounds on a regular basis according to the sales posted O0
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 01:53:31 PM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline knabe

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2019, 03:13:47 PM »
Any negative as construed by whom?


JIT frames many things that could be a negative as an extreme edge case to the positive.

one could easily look back at many posts.

not a big knock, but sort of a broken record.

take the hooves observation.  everyone has anecdotal evidence they would like dark hooves and they are the greatest thing since whatever and never crack except used in an argument, oh, i had a dark hoofed bull that cracked, but this light hoofed bull has never had a problem implying they never will except that when they do, it's some sort of outlier the other way with explanation xyz.

birth weights are another, paraphrasing.  "never had a problem and sold infinite embryo's all over the world no problem, but someone has a problem and it's not a problem"

for some people, it's a little tiring to keep hearing the same pitch over and over.


the blowback to that sales pitch is why this thread is named what it is.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 03:15:06 PM by knabe »
"The generation that told us to question authority, has now become the Authority we cannot question!"

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2019, 04:05:59 PM »
I would agree somewhat that his his answers seem to be agreeable and not very force full no matter what the subject  or how caustic things get However hes a little smarter than that. I distinctly remember him on several occasions stating that ONCE IN A WHILE there can be big ones out of leroy etc-And this was probably 10 tears or so ago. Hes a good salesman-who will describe a slight risk in using a bull-(any bull etc) in a manner that may make it seem remote. Understated if you will Thats what he was like in person the only time I met him 2007 I had just heard of leroy and he said what he knew about him no big accolades etc just matter of fact If I did that much business id be all happy face too-But i have what some think is a negative attitude and have talked my way out of sales if I dont think things will work  O0

Offline knabe

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2019, 05:45:44 PM »
I like the leroy bull.  not sure slight risk was way to represent him.


in general, like what JIT does, says.


the slight risk was not slight, meaning one needs a multiplication factor for those types of statements.


there probably would have been a couple customers in particular that if there wouldn't have been such an expectation gap, things would have been better.
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Offline knabe

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2019, 05:48:41 PM »
i think the perception can sometimes be a fire and ice mating portrayed as a type to type outcome.


i think it's ok to have portrayed leroy as more of a risk than he was portrayed as.
 
i think he also had some defect too, but i thought he was a good enough bull someone should have linebred him to dilute his bad qualities and concentrate his good ones. I think JIT had one such bull.  can't remember. probably needed a couple more generations to find the consistent balance between traits he could have been.
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Offline Steve123

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #65 on: December 08, 2019, 06:54:20 AM »
i think he also had some defect too, but i thought he was a good enough bull someone should have linebred him to dilute his bad qualities and concentrate his good ones. I think JIT had one such bull.  can't remember. probably needed a couple more generations to find the consistent balance between traits he could have been.

Doesn't line breeding accentuate the bad qualities.  It turns a recessive trait into a dominate trait and most defects are recessive because they destroy a population when they are expressed.  Just wondering, I also don't need the abuse.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #66 on: December 08, 2019, 07:55:28 AM »
Good point-but I think knabes a lttle tongue and cheek on that one. Linebreeding big bws results in the higher probability of big BWS . jmo Same applies to low bws and milk depends which side of the fence you are breeding O0

Offline knabe

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #67 on: December 09, 2019, 04:31:42 PM »
line breeding can speed up the selection process if segregation exists for traits of interests.


line breeding in and of itself doesn't really do good or bad.


if anything, it identifies bad things and allows faster positive selection.


pedigree anxiety 4th.


https://hereford.org/static/files/0708_Legends.pdf


https://books.google.com/books?id=PNFBAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA98&lpg=PA98&dq=anxiety+4th+pedigree&source=bl&ots=hm7wREUZMt&sig=ACfU3U1rH_QbQ0Im6dXWg3eBWPGRbFbFsQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiu-qTWzanmAhV1LH0KHdBtCVEQ6AEwDHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=anxiety%204th%20pedigree&f=false




http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=3E3F292A&2=2434&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5B5D5C5B5A202F2722


and down through the line of outstanding bulls

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Offline Duncraggan

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!
« Reply #68 on: December 10, 2019, 02:49:04 PM »

Oh absolutely.  Nothing in the pedigree to suggest otherwise  ::)


SB PROUD VENTURE BW EPD 5.4
CF TRUMP 3.8
JSF TOP HAND 4.6
SPRYS ALL GOLD 3.8
SPRYS AUSSIE GOLD 6.3
BYLAND GOLD PLATED 5.1
I bought the South African semen rights and 500 doses of Spry's All Gold D052 in about 2009.
Although the BW's are fairly high, the calves come easily. I calve at 30 and 36 months only, due to the environment. He has been used extensively over heifers here.
With that kind of growth there will clearly be higher BW's. They certainly haven't shown coarseness through the shoulders though, which I feel is a bigger indicator of calving issues!
I have had trouble when linebreeding progeny with a common link on both the top and the bottom of the pedigree to a bull I purchased in 2003 to improve the bone in my herd. I had some 56kg (123lbs) calves, one where I lost the heifer, one where there was a prolapse on a second calf cow, and another from a mature cow that calved with no problem.
I now know to avoid that genetic combination!

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #69 on: December 10, 2019, 03:26:09 PM »
validation from independent sources is always a plus.

slight knock.  the narrative always seems to be any negative is actually a positive at the opposite end of the spectrum.

this just isn't possible.

this type of narrative actually is not a positive because it's just so predictable and rarely comes with independent sources of verification.

the 10 standard deviation to the positive narrative is a little UNBELIEVABLY tiresome.

if the narrative were true even at a marginal level, shorthorn would register more than angus and dominate.




JIT frames many things that could be a negative as an extreme edge case to the positive.

one could easily look back at many posts.

not a big knock, but sort of a broken record.

take the hooves observation.  everyone has anecdotal evidence they would like dark hooves and they are the greatest thing since whatever and never crack except used in an argument, oh, i had a dark hoofed bull that cracked, but this light hoofed bull has never had a problem implying they never will except that when they do, it's some sort of outlier the other way with explanation xyz.

birth weights are another, paraphrasing.  "never had a problem and sold infinite embryo's all over the world no problem, but someone has a problem and it's not a problem"

for some people, it's a little tiring INSULTING to keep hearing the same pitch over and over.


the blowback to that sales pitch is why this thread is named what it is.

Everyone knows Knabe is the smartest person in the room but this here is just genius level greatness. 

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: !
« Reply #70 on: December 10, 2019, 07:06:10 PM »

Oh absolutely.  Nothing in the pedigree to suggest otherwise  ::)


SB PROUD VENTURE BW EPD 5.4
CF TRUMP 3.8
JSF TOP HAND 4.6
SPRYS ALL GOLD 3.8
SPRYS AUSSIE GOLD 6.3
BYLAND GOLD PLATED 5.1
I bought the South African semen rights and 500 doses of Spry's All Gold D052 in about 2009.
Although the BW's are fairly high, the calves come easily. I calve at 30 and 36 months only, due to the environment. He has been used extensively over heifers here.
With that kind of growth there will clearly be higher BW's. They certainly haven't shown coarseness through the shoulders though, which I feel is a bigger indicator of calving issues!
I have had trouble when linebreeding progeny with a common link on both the top and the bottom of the pedigree to a bull I purchased in 2003 to improve the bone in my herd. I had some 56kg (123lbs) calves, one where I lost the heifer, one where there was a prolapse on a second calf cow, and another from a mature cow that calved with no problem.
I now know to avoid that genetic combination!//// I agree especially on the shape of the calves RE Calving ease bWS etc. the point I was trying to make-Is that list posted with the EPDS is made up entirely (other than Trump) of performance breeders from back in the day WHO DOCUMENTED THIER CATTLE HONESTLY. THATS WHY THE EPDS on BWS may be higher-But like you said that didnt necessarily make them cow killers and they worked through the years to improve BWS and not lose Growth Today-alot of that blood remains effective as part of the functional cattle that have evolved O0

Offline Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2019, 06:18:51 AM »
Agree with Knabe.
Linebreeding or inbreeding is not the matter. If you choose a good genetics and know what it have in background. Inbreeding is an interesting tool. Just need to know use it.
By the way, so many claimed outcross genetics that will introduce genetics defects, high BW, narrow butts (we raise a beef breed!!), thin ugly necks, coffin heads, leggy animals, makes inbreeding the lesser problem for the breed.
I will ever use linebreeding to use claimed great sires that will bring me a pandora box on her calves.

Offline aj

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #72 on: December 11, 2019, 04:18:33 PM »
If you are trying to sell something....all you need is a picture. It doesn't matter if it is a painted portrait or a photoshopped deal. There is always someone out there with more money than brains. The average lifespan of the purebred herd is 5 years.....these are the people who are vulnerable. These are the people merchandizers target.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #73 on: December 11, 2019, 05:19:52 PM »
Ryan Wernicke is neither rich nor new at all-Hes been in these cattle all of his life-and Dale was as sharp as they come.Hes seen the calf-seen him walk-Says hes the real deal,walks like an Egyptian one of the best hes ever seen and the stall pic is just that. Id like to see a little better heal versus dew claw on him-which makes him appear a little small footed: Ryan says he is not small footed- good enough for me-The big U S show boppers seem to wax and wane dependent upon how many lemmings are left after they"ve tried to either turn the heifers into cows or get even 10% of their investment back.I dont see a whole lot of fluffy puff in the 40 below 0 frozen snow sales that most of the JIT and the other Canadian cattle are pictured in . A lot of the time they arent even clipped and are stained from laying in the bedding And given the number of commercial buyers who keep showing back up: I dont buy the fake news - O0

Offline aj

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Re: I really don't need the abuse but I am going to do it anyway
« Reply #74 on: December 12, 2019, 07:52:33 PM »
You have dropped names....that's good....tactical......But I live west of the Missouri river......out here in fly over country.....so your effort is lost on me. Bahahahah
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

 

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