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Offline R180

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JBS Da Big Hurt
« on: December 04, 2021, 01:56:11 PM »
Posting this pic here for someone because I cant figure out how to add a photo in a direct message.

This is a bull that was born in 93 (same year as Trump and Doublestuff) and appears to have not gotten a lot of use until 99.  He has a lot of cunia and Dividend breeding in his background.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: JBS Da Big Hurt
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2021, 05:28:55 PM »
Thanks R 180-YOU DAH MAN at finding the rareities I remember the ad Cell pics changed him-He was thicker than these pics show-especially his top and rear And I saw a heifer from him that was a real meat wagon This is the kind of blood where hed outbreed himself on the right animal  O0

Online knabe

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Re: JBS Da Big Hurt
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2021, 07:53:34 PM »
hybrid vigor.  it's what happens after that that is the true test.
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Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: JBS Da Big Hurt
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2021, 10:04:26 AM »
There is nothing Hybrid about a bull that goes back to Dividend probably 10 times Cunia-and then to what could be considered native or OLDSCHOOL  Shorthorns -PRE IRISH in other words Almost every shorthorn in this country other than 35 plus year old genetics goes back to Dividend somewhere I also like him because there is nothing remotely like him today-And hes probably bigger than almost everything today More of a re introduction of existing genes back a good ways Not a bad thing when you look at his carcass EPDS-they are some of the strongest I have seen anywhere on a Shorthorn bull and probably a number of other breeds O0
« Last Edit: December 05, 2021, 10:09:41 AM by mark tenenbaum »

Online knabe

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Re: JBS Da Big Hurt
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2021, 12:52:48 PM »
got it. so he's a crossbred bull to two bulls from different breeds with very poor performance numbers.


marbing: none, probably from cunia, he's among the worst of maine's (red knight was a good bull back in the day, clubby).  no actual REA or IMF data on progeny on website.
CW: none
rib eye, some, probably from cunia or crossbred nature of pedigree
WW: none
YW: none
milk: good, prob from both bulls


strong epds, not so much.  is there another website with different data?


still, an interesting crossbred bull.
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Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: JBS Da Big Hurt
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2021, 03:29:06 PM »
90% of the shorthorn bulls are negative marbling -with a zig zag pattern for the rest of the carcass traits  His are some of the highest I have seen VERY FEW Shorthorn bulls are MORE FAVORABLE -RE MARBLING  (Ive been raising them well over 30 years AND KNOW HOW TO INTERPRET THE EPDS . THE ONLY OTHER SHORTHORN BULL IN MY RECENT SEARCHES WHO EVEN HITS THE MID POINT ON MARBLING IS  NDSU TASK FORCE  HES SELLING IN A WEEK OR SO IN ND   ) Every Item in Big Hurts carcass EPDS is  way across the mid point-I do not know of a thick clubby Shorthorn or any US SHORTHORN BULL  for that matter that matches this-Perhaps you could clue me in  Weaning and yearling are  slanted against his breeding-AND ARE NOT CARCASS TRAITS TO BEGIN WITH Its a wonder the BWS arent 7 and 8 like Double vision and Stuff-Having raised probably 50 of that breeding and seeing both bulls in person- And from general experience  the numbers in that time period were pretty well biased to the Trump Rodeo deal that was happening then-Those cattle were in MANY CASES cow killers But they were Hunsley and Cagwins bread and butter Again it was political BS from the Assoc-like all the assocs.  Just like THE A CONTEMPORARY BIG TIME BULL OF TODAY- A Salute on a Solution cow with  a purported 0 BW-which is so off the wall STEVIE WONDER COULD SEE THE FLAT OUT FRAUD IN THAT BULL AND THOSE NUMBERS -MEANWHILE THE SAME BULL IS  ONE OF THE SHRINES ALL THE LEMMINGS SCURRY TO WHEN A FEW STRAWS OF SEMEN COME UP ON A SALE If you knew Shorthorns-You would understand that Big Hurts  maternal grandam is linebred to Scotts Hill major Clark 4 times (hence a pretty influential line on marbling ) Then from there directly to Aberfeldy and Scottsdale cattle Thats close to 60 years ago in some cases And its pretty elementary-that the rib calcs etc werent really running on all cylinders RE EPDS in 1993  O0
« Last Edit: December 05, 2021, 03:46:35 PM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline R180

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Re: JBS Da Big Hurt
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2021, 04:28:59 PM »
No dog in this fight, Id say Trump is more crossbred than this bull, theyre similar but Trump carries the big shot of Chi on the bottom side.  Nevertheless, trumps been pretty consistent the past three decades.

Online knabe

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Re: JBS Da Big Hurt
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2021, 05:12:06 PM »
No dog either.

Shorthorns had small ribeyes in the 80s. Saw about 50 carcasses in steer feeding futurities with breeds still represented in their full colors.

Shorthorns had small ribeyes and no marbling.

Sad to think no progress.

But wait. A search shows plenty of bulls 0.6 and above.

Who knew.
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Online Medium Rare

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Re: JBS Da Big Hurt
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2021, 06:04:01 PM »
It's not hard to find shorthorns imf scanning 5s, 6s, and even 7s. I bet I could even find some 8s with 5 minutes of searching a couple prefixes. Most all of these would be over 1.1/100 on rea. In today's world, 1.1 might not be enough for some though. It probably is for me on the female side of things.

As far as this particular bull, for whatever reason the system just doesn't know how to read his pedigree. Not just part of it either, nearly all of it will come out as pure confusion. I'd start with throwing those growth epds out the window. I'd probably throw the cem out the window too.

It's a shame how much the system allows birth date to influence predictions.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: JBS Da Big Hurt
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2021, 07:42:42 PM »
I wouldnt-BUT THERE AGAIN-I RAISED SHORTS FOR REAL  ive had steermakers and used Dextro a good son  -Maybe before your time-But we sold a pretty good 6 MONTH OLD  Dextro bull calf at Deertrail IN 1994 OUT OF BYLAND MARJORY FOR $4000  ($15000 AT LEAST IN TODAYS SHORTHORN MONEY -no trade)whos BW  was 95-205 0f 689-Yearling around 1200-He was in the same pen as Deertrail Buckshot who went to Shadybrook in Canada You are making comments on numbers which were probably never analyzed in terms of FAIR INDECES CONSIDERING THE TIME-MUCH LESS YOU PROBABLY WERENT AROUND THEN ACTIVELY BREEDING SHORTHORN CATTLE AT THAT TIME OR MAYBE AT ALL -MOST PEOPLE WHO HAD ANYTHING OUT OF THE NORM BACK THEN  figured why bother? THEY WILL JUST GET SKEWED I GUESS THE BEST THING FOR YOU TO DO CONSIDERING THE RESPONSES-IS USE THE REALLY GOOD LOW BW BULLS LIKE CF SOLUTION AND THE REST-BECAUSE IT SAYS SO AT THE ASSOC-DONT LISTEN TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN IN IT SINCE 1962 (INCLUDES 4 H )  AND TRY TO TELL YOU WHATS REALLY GOING ON OH -I FORGOT-THE HOTTEST CATTLE IN THE LAST 20 YEARS HAVE BEEN THE MAX ROSAS AND MAXIM-I RAISED UB MAD MAX AND WE SHOWED HIM IN 1993 WINNING ALL BUT ONE-EVER SEE ME TOUTING HIM FOR EFFECT? O0

Online knabe

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Re: JBS Da Big Hurt
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2021, 09:19:45 PM »
It's a shame how much the system allows birth date to influence predictions.

If data is wrong, the easiest way to fix it is with a contemporary group that has his and other calves from bull with good data.

I agree, the old data is almost worthless considering lots of things, on the other hand, angus has made hybrid vigor pointless.
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Online Medium Rare

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Re: JBS Da Big Hurt
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2021, 10:50:50 PM »
It's a shame how much the system allows birth date to influence predictions.

If data is wrong, the easiest way to fix it is with a contemporary group that has his and other calves from bull with good data.

I agree, the old data is almost worthless considering lots of things, on the other hand, angus has made hybrid vigor pointless.

I'll use 13th from his pedigree as an example. He has genetically enhanced growth epd accuracies of .83 for a ranking in the bottom 10-15% of the breed. You'd have to have one out of a no milk desert rat to keep their growth that low. I'm probably one of the only people in two decades to turn in a complete set of bw/ww/yw on his progeny, but they were ET calves so even that was a waste of time.

A few more clicks shows Steermaker is currently in the bottom 5% of the breed for growth. Multiple shots of Clark and Columbus, who are also in the bottom 5-10% of the breed. All of these numbers are just mind boggling considering frame alone. You could have a picnic on the top of some of the old steermaker steers from back in the day, so the pounds were there. We're somehow just supposed to accept that all of the above are below JPJ for growth. Some of us know better.

Considering it's nearly impossible to find a pedigree that doesn't have Dividend in it it's just frustrating knowing these numbers are the base of the breed's epds. There's not even anyone in the ASA office who you could have this type of historical genetic convo with and we're quickly losing the old guard, so I guess it's all soon to be forgotten anyways and we're supposed to just move on.

I'm still lucky enough to drive by pastures using high percentage Maine, Hereford, and Shorthorn bulls to make those "Angus" calves look good. It seems like it only takes a generational turnover on the human side for that to change though.

Offline R180

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Re: JBS Da Big Hurt
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2021, 06:31:07 AM »
Medium Rare, your comment about there not being someone at the ASA to have a conversation with about the oddities you point out is a good one.  Makes me appreciate this site and contributes like you. I know theyve done some tests on bulls with UI, albeit with small sample sizes, would be interesting if they did a bigger test and included some of these older bulls just for the sake of comparison (would be hard to get enough dividen Semen, but they could use Improver 2nd or Dividends Impact, Ayatollah, Clark, and Rodeo Drive - would be fascinating.)

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: JBS Da Big Hurt
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2021, 09:26:07 AM »
The marc study at Clay Center Neb went on for years There were a few samples and indeces taken for awhile from the harvested Louisville steers Lately the Illinois feed tests have added new nos.- thats about it  From the sheer numbers of Steermaker steers that were around maybe some basic (marbling above normal etc) carcass numbers were obtained Im going to use him somewhere based upon what his progeny looked like-According to the pedigree-Its no different using him to ad marbling than a Canadian bull-they are somewhat similar with the beefy dual back there-pedigree wise Maybe the burgers will be good-And with almost everything other than Toby Jordans ( and a few others)-The stated FAVORABLE-LESS FAVORABLE carcass data re-Marbling etc etc-are just as accurate on Big Hurt as anything else -as brought up-the percentiles are useless for the most part . Ill use one like him because I like the look-Especially over one I dont like for various reasons That withstanding-many have no etc marbling on paper anyway   Not many people remember that bulls like Clark or Spruce Hill Image and especially 2975  were behind alot of  steer mommas back in the day-And mixed with Irish blood produced some huge long term growth patterns There were some oldliners who thought there was a touch of Charolais back there in the White ones like Columbus etc-and Cunia behind 2975-Couldnt do nothing wrong back in them days Anyone who got to see Harold Hoskins cattle back in the day would see examples of Fullblood mainexCharolais by even Simms They were big thick cattle-Way thicker than anything today never have figured how he kept the pretty fronts on them Hed just say "the maine dual thing works" O0 O0
« Last Edit: December 06, 2021, 11:16:13 AM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: JBS Da Big Hurt
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2021, 09:43:34 AM »
No dog in this fight, Id say Trump is more crossbred than this bull, theyre similar but Trump carries the big shot of Chi on the bottom side.  Nevertheless, trumps been pretty consistent the past three decades.///// Well put-and the linebred Trump-Solution etc cattle that make the popular show ring deal-Actually have LESS REAL SHORTHORN IN THEM THAN BIG HURT IN ALOT OF CASES Not saying thats bad-just count the maines in his pedigree-and in the newer ones-Then ad the Dreamboat- CHI over and over O0
« Last Edit: December 06, 2021, 11:11:00 AM by mark tenenbaum »

 

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