Kodiak 3rd

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librarian

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This is probably really dumb, but...
I'm studying Kodiak 3rd. He is the sire of some interesting animals, including.                Thomas Kodiak 89B.
In that pedigree, beside Kodiak 3rd, written in purple is THH and PHAH. If that means Homozygous for the defect, wouldn't a homozygous animal be all messed up and dead?
 

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mbigelow

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I don't think the animal was ever tested. I believe that a random designation for genetic condition was assigned on older animals to make the program work and they have been going back through and removing them once they have been found.  Yes, if it was homozygous for PHA it would be dead. DS on the other hand could not even show signs?? (I still don't quite understand that )
 

r.n.reed

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I had the same deal on one of my pedigrees with Weston Surprise.I was told by an ASA rep that all the old bulls were arbitrarily entered as PHAH and THH.They told me they would clean it up and the green is gone but the orange remains.
 

justintime

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I have noticed a few older bulls who have no DNA that can be tested that are shown in this way. Someone told me the H stood for Heritage but that doesn't seem to fit either. In any event, I think these bulls can be considered to be free by pedigree, as they were born before the TH defect arrived in North America
 

librarian

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Wasn't Clipper King of that vintage?
I don't think one can assume that TH came in as an isolated incident and that it didn't exist in Shorthorns before Clare Man polluted the well.
I suggest TH came out of dormancy thru line breeding to Improver and using Improver sons on carriers descended from some of the ubiquitous short legged, shaggy, big barreled, curly headed (ie. Galloway contaminated) Shorthorns of Improver's day.
 

sue

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librarian said:
Wasn't Clipper King of that vintage?
I don't think one can assume that TH came in as an isolated incident and that it didn't exist in Shorthorns before Clare Man polluted the well.
I suggest TH came out of dormancy thru line breeding to Improver and using Improver sons on carriers descended from some of the ubiquitous short legged, shaggy, big barreled, curly headed (ie. Galloway contaminated) Shorthorns of Improver's day.
I assumed Clipper King  was Galloway influenced as well way back in the day? Calrossie  neighboring herd was Galloway?  I could be wrong but what would make anyone think a galloway bull couldnt jump a fence or that mistakes didnt happen in the 50's or 60's. Constellation and welcome had a huge impact on the breed back in the day.  Double muslcing is not isolated to one breed ?  Is this a Maine influenced issue or Limmousin - the list goes on.  Deerpark's neighboring herd was Galloway too.  Black Angus have neighboring dairy herds etc.
 

Hopster1000

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I would say it is a bit of a jump to say Deerpark's neighbouring herd were Galloway. I know some people say Clare Man, Improvers Sire, may have had some influence, but Galloway cattle would have been more popular in the Ulster region because of the South West Scottish influence and less so the further south you went and Limerick is far south in Irish terms. Ballymena would have been the main sale for Galloway in Ireland. Plus the old Black Thorn hedges in Ireland weren't that easy to walk through 😊
I think the genetic mutations such as polled, myostatin, TH etc could have all appeared in different lines due to breeding pressures and its wrong to assume a single line or breed for introducing them. As a follow up to that they could still appear in lines that currently do not have that "trait". I have seen it first hand with a polled mutation and although that mutation is more common, the others cant be ruled out. Putting it all down to peoples mistakes with other breeds may be a little harsh on some breeders reputations.
 

sue

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librarian said:
This is probably really dumb, but...
I'm studying Kodiak 3rd. He is the sire of some interesting animals, including.                Thomas Kodiak 89B.
In that pedigree, beside Kodiak 3rd, written in purple is THH and PHAH. If that means Homozygous for the defect, wouldn't a homozygous animal be all messed up and dead?
I just read the Thomas prefix in your post.  If this helps- the Thomas herd of western Canada was purchased by Don Cagwin's former ( late 60's and 70's ) employer of Illinois. There is one old sale catalog here that was Thomas, Drappier and kinnaber who sold together. This catalog had a entire offering of TPS Leader 21st and his son's influence of Kinnaber herd. I dont know if the Kodiak bull is photoed but it's a lead- at least someone may have old catalogs to see extended pedigrees. 

 

librarian

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Thanks for the help. I was asking about the purple genetic defect code just because it didn't make sense, not really because I thought he was carrier- seemed like a glitch.
But he must have been a nice bull and those certainly must have been interesting times. To me, just looking at the cows he was bred to tells a story.
About the Galloway- I dont know about Ireland, but I think there has always been a degree of interbreeding wherever Galloways and Shorthorns are near one another. It's just a wonderful cross. There must be a reason, apart from nostalgia, that Rothney had herds of both Galloway and Shorthorn in Canada.
 

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librarian

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Oh, I remember now I was just reading, not long ago, about Galloway-like cattle being shipped from Ireland to Scotland as stores, but often they were horned. Can't remember where, some old book.
 

oakview

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It was very, very common for purebred breeders to have more than one breed 50 years ago.  Bill Anderson was one of the tough competitors in the show ring in the 60's and he had Shorthorns and Galloways.  Remitall had Herefords and Shorthorns in Canada.  Check out the cover of the Studer sale catalog.  There's a photo of their home farm near Wesley with a caption stating that they had 4 purebred herds.  I remember Angus, Herefords (polled, I think), and Shorthorns.  I don't remember what the other breed was.  One of highlights of my youth was stopping at their place to see Sutherland Prospector.  The bull was impressive, but what impressed me most was that he was absolutely spotless and all clipped up.  Needless to say, the 4 year old herd bulls at our place were not always in show ring condition.
 

oakview

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I doubt if Galloways were infused into the Shorthorn pool for the polled gene back in the day.  In the 50's and early 60's the polled cattle were almost thought of as second hand citizens by the breed's "elite."  Polled cattle had their own section in Shorthorn World.  Some major shows had both polled and horned divisions.  Anybody that was anybody was raising "Scotch Shorthorns."  I think JIT mentioned in another thread that Clipper King of Bapton, sire of TH carrier Clipper King of USA, came from a herd that had Galloways in addition to their Shorthorns.  Bulls get out, you know.  I've had a mystery calf or two over the past 50+ years myself.  Perhaps a logical explanation of how the Clipper Kings got the "bug."  We'll probably never know for sure.
 

justintime

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oakview said:
I doubt if Galloways were infused into the Shorthorn pool for the polled gene back in the day.  In the 50's and early 60's the polled cattle were almost thought of as second hand citizens by the breed's "elite."  Polled cattle had their own section in Shorthorn World.  Some major shows had both polled and horned divisions.  Anybody that was anybody was raising "Scotch Shorthorns."  I think JIT mentioned in another thread that Clipper King of Bapton, sire of TH carrier Clipper King of USA, came from a herd that had Galloways in addition to their Shorthorns.  Bulls get out, you know.  I've had a mystery calf or two over the past 50+ years myself.  Perhaps a logical explanation of how the Clipper Kings got the "bug."  We'll probably never know for sure.


Many of the " mistakes" of the past we just that... mistakes. Others were deliberate. After being in Scotland and talking with some of the older breeders, I think it is safe to say that there were a few well known breeders in that era that were not Saints. The same can be said for breeders today, however today we have DNA technology to help police the breed's gene pool.
I remember when I was on the board of the Canadian Shorthorn Association, which was prior to any thoughts of having DNA testing, we met with the Head registrar of Canadian Livestock Records Corporation, CLRC were the registrar for almost all breeds in Canada at that time, and still maintain the records for many breeds and species today.
I asked the question to the registrar, if he had any idea of how many cattle were being registered with the wrong pedigree information? He replied that in his estimation it was between 10-15% of all cattle registered at that time. He said some of these errors would be true mistakes, and some would be considered to be true deception by the breeder. At that time, the only means of determining some of these errors was by blood typing technology. Ohio State was a leader in that day of blood typing technology and I also remember asking the head of the Blood Typing lab at Ohio State the question of how accurate blood typing technology was? He said while it was the most accurate method available, there was still many flaws in this system. He said one example was that there were 8 fullblood Maine Anjou imported bulls that showed a blood type that suggested purebred Shorthorn. He said that there were some blood typing issues in almost every breed. He also said that he could not understand why the American and Canadian Shorthorn Associations had accepted the Irish strain into their herd books as purebreds, when some of them had totally different blood types than they had ever seen in the Shorthorn breed.
Several years ago, a friend of mine was asked to help one of his neighbors register the calves from his 300 head of registered Polled Herefords. He said that when he started to fill in the information of the first calf, he asked the owner what the sire of this calf was? He replied " what bulls are popular today?"  My friend said he knew right then, that it was going to be a very long night as this breeder had virtually no records and made the registrations out from his head. After seeing how bad this was going to be, my friend told this owner that he could not help him get the registrations done. About 3 years later, this herd was dispersed, and it was interesting that all the calves from that calf crop were registered and were sired by some of the best sires in the breed at that time. This story may have been a rare occurrence back then, but I really don't think it was as rare as some would think.
 
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