librarian
Well-known member
A good article by Matt Woolfolk on the top ten Shorthorn sires by progeny and where are we going with this?
May/June Shorthorn Country page 12
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RyanChandler
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Do you mean shorthorn country or?
I haven’t got may issue yet and it’s not online so idk
I haven’t got may issue yet and it’s not online so idk
Matt's Shorthorn Country article is well worth reading and rereading! Grandma Gleda used to say, "If you do not know where you are going, any road will take you." Matt is asking Shorthorn breeders what direction we want to go, in general, as a breed.
mark tenenbaum
Well-known member
PVF. Loving , Studer, and others bandwagons. Is there NOW REALLY an immediate band aid like Red Reward WAS? With that quality, BWs structural integrity ?Along with SHORTHORN FRONTS, Depth of rib YATTA YATTA? HATS OFF TO SULLIVAN FOR THAT WHOLE TRIBE A: LEGIT, USEFUL ,AND NECESSARY VENTURE INTO SHOW CATTLE THAT CAN ALSO BE FUNCTIONAL AND MODERATE THE HUGE GENERAL BW PROBLEM WITH A DIFFERENT " SOLUTION" ET AL. TOO BAD THEY didn't take off and sustain: the way I hoped they would. So the national champion 2021 and 2022 handmade bulls (for example) who will probably NEVER work in the field and are the same CF Solution or variations that have been around FOR YEARS. WITH the-sire stacked on top of similar members of various permutations of Hahns-Stienke cattle along with their beautiful (for the moment) myriad full and half sibs from the same 25 year old gene pool. And I"m not talking Sullivan-he appears to have moved on. So are the " do no wrong" BIG MONEY (we pay the most for trade ins) breeders who for the last 18 at least years or more chased this kind of breeding. SO NOW LETS use a Byland Jungels et al bull one time and all 20 years of those stacked genetics disappear.Wanna show em? I haven't SEEN ANY CATTLE FROM ANY OF THOSE BREEDERS YET -Unless they were those sires bred to show genetics..AS FAR AS THE WHOLE "OTHER SIDE"" WHY ALL OF THEM WERE 80 POUNDS AT BIRTH ANYWAY "-THATS WHY THE BULL CALVES ON CREEP AND SELF FEEDERS NORMALLY HAVE YEARLING WTS OF 1050 OR LESS IN SOME CASES AND 4.5 FRAME SCORES (in some cases) Those are some real candidates in that range for all the friends and neighbors looking to breed MINI CATTLE LOL Hot Commodity still maintains and is proven for many years-and they are STILL very attractive cattle that do whats necessary Including GROW. Just hated to see Kevin Kimmerling disappear -He doesn't like me I could give a Sh@$%&*(T Great breeder O0Dale said:
knabe
Well-known member
when i was in college, shorthorns had briskets that had a huge amount of fat without fat further back.
not sure which line/s are responsible for that. maybe just a desired phenotype back in the day.
seems like it's hard to get rid of.
not sure which line/s are responsible for that. maybe just a desired phenotype back in the day.
seems like it's hard to get rid of.
mark tenenbaum
Well-known member
Would you define or describe a Shorthorn front for me please? The Knabe reply is pretty accurate as far as some fronts go. Do you mean similar to these? The cell phone actually distorts them a little and stretches them out.. They are also shorter necked than they appear in the pictures.
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Medium Rare
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I read it when it first came out, but was left with way more questions than answers and should probably read it again.
Angus is not a WHR organization. How does that affect this epd comparison? I believe Marc has Angus and Hereford as being in the top 4?? breeds for mature cow size. If we accept that, where should we as a breed actually want to be when it comes to comparing our epds considering how much frame has an affect on them? Black cows are being covered with colored bulls all over the country right now. I'm not ancient, but I can't remember a time when it was as popular as it is now. If you explore the reasons for this trend, I think you'll find some of the issues those cow men are trying to fix are a direct result of what it took to create the epds being compared here. Angus and Herefords obviously have larger populations, but those populations also have a commercial to show ratio that is very different from Shorthorns. Last I knew the average shorthorn herd was 6. A large percentage of those 6s are Jr herds. The shorthorn breed is considered one of the best breed environments for youth to develop within and it's really not even close, so I don't see this changing any time soon. The ASA has described how much those small herds mean to the financial side many times, so wishing them gone could have consequences unless commercial breeders expand their side of the ratio fairly significantly. If we look at all this data and then consider those ratios, I really don't know how to even compare these numbers. Or if we should.
On the other hand, there is a bull or two on this list I really wish wasn't there. If those calves hit a commercial feedlot they're going to get embarrassed. You're not getting near a 1,000lb carcass out of them without extra inputs, time, and a lot of luck. It's just not happening. Buyers will remember the roan calf in the pen and have no clue they're out of bull X, who just doesn't have the gas to compete.
Angus is not a WHR organization. How does that affect this epd comparison? I believe Marc has Angus and Hereford as being in the top 4?? breeds for mature cow size. If we accept that, where should we as a breed actually want to be when it comes to comparing our epds considering how much frame has an affect on them? Black cows are being covered with colored bulls all over the country right now. I'm not ancient, but I can't remember a time when it was as popular as it is now. If you explore the reasons for this trend, I think you'll find some of the issues those cow men are trying to fix are a direct result of what it took to create the epds being compared here. Angus and Herefords obviously have larger populations, but those populations also have a commercial to show ratio that is very different from Shorthorns. Last I knew the average shorthorn herd was 6. A large percentage of those 6s are Jr herds. The shorthorn breed is considered one of the best breed environments for youth to develop within and it's really not even close, so I don't see this changing any time soon. The ASA has described how much those small herds mean to the financial side many times, so wishing them gone could have consequences unless commercial breeders expand their side of the ratio fairly significantly. If we look at all this data and then consider those ratios, I really don't know how to even compare these numbers. Or if we should.
On the other hand, there is a bull or two on this list I really wish wasn't there. If those calves hit a commercial feedlot they're going to get embarrassed. You're not getting near a 1,000lb carcass out of them without extra inputs, time, and a lot of luck. It's just not happening. Buyers will remember the roan calf in the pen and have no clue they're out of bull X, who just doesn't have the gas to compete.
In your response to Dale you referred to Shorthorn fronts and I wondered what a Shorthorn front was. Back in the 70s I judged the North Dakota sale in Carrington. My Grand Champion bull was a Weston Suprise 9th son that Ron Hofstrand brought. He was a well balanced bull with a well developed year end. My reserve was a Wayne Clark bull that was bigger with not as much rear end but a bull that would have had a very large heart girth. Now I am in the meat business and I do not care about shows and brisket sells higher than round I wonder how I would place those bulls today.mark tenenbaum said:
mark tenenbaum
Well-known member
There are cattle that do both. After thirty years some of those breeders are finally getting their due.Thats why I wanted people to see the Martin herd. They have always been in the higher echelons of the breed: when they showed, and when they work. Judging from the pictures at a"lot of these sales FAT SELLS. THAT CERTAINLY INCLUDES THE COUPLE PICS I POSTED. The Martin cattle were pretty well in everyday conditions. And unless they are in conditions where they are not taken care of at all-That"s what they look like. O0
knabe
Well-known member
beebe said:
astute observation. never understood the attention on the rear end either, but i don't know enough about how carcasses are pieced out for profit, i.e., more brisket less rear end and vice versa and how overall product breaks out. probably very easy to do a study, but getting that info is probably pretty hard and proprietary.
mark tenenbaum
Well-known member
ATTENTION to the rear end is what makes commercial and other type breeders even look at a Shorthorn from what I have seen. And that"s basic cattle, that somewhat resemble what they raise every day in type.Those commercials (given a modicum of quality) are usually thick stout animals that are not managed as ridgedly as purebreds. So at the fair are "show" or possibly the emerging NEW DUAL PURPOSE purebred Shorthorns. What constitutes a member of this new clche?They can show, and they are also all around functional . And they are naturally thick. The fullblood maines had a lot to do with the beginnings of the thick Shorthorns and Hunsley recognized that.O0
aj
Well-known member
I guess I'm for those 80 bwts and 1000 pound weaning weights. That's all that will survive the Goodland Ks semi-arid environment.
Duncraggan
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I acquired the services of a consultant a number of years ago precisely because of this!Dale said:
i believed that I needed some 'outside eyes' to evaluate what I was doing. I had objectives, but they weren't objective enough by his accounts.
What I learned, in a sentence, is that the most important thing in any pedigree operation is to have an idea of where you want to be, and why, and then breed to that goal.
Bull sales will follow, sometimes with a lag, when you gain credibility and the associated 'hype' to your programme.
I'm not a great 'hype' marketer
knabe
Well-known member
aj said:
are the yearling weights 1800+?
librarian
Well-known member
-XBAR- said:
