Mini angus

Whats up with the miniture angus (lowline)? What are the advantages to having them. ???

CM Cattle said:

Whats up with the miniture angus (lowline)? What are the advantages to having them. ???

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Don't let TJ hear you call them miniature.  I only have one 1/2 Lowline, but from what I know the advantages are:

1. Easier feeding: My heifer only ate about 1/2 of what our other heifers the same age did, and she wasn't anywhere near 1/2 the size.

2. Most Lowlines have excellent dispositions, I've led Lowlines no problem the first time they've been on a halter.

3. Carcass quality: I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I know that TJ's cattle score very well on the GeneStar scan tests.


I'm sure the Lowline breeders could add to this, these are just a few of my observations.

Just to clarify....'mini angus' are not necessarily lowline.  A lowline MUST be traceable via DNA to the original herd developed by the Australian government.  Lowlines are known for calving ease and are recommended for first-time heifers.  They are very feed-efficient, as Justin mentioned, and were developed to marble on grass. We can attest to that as we just slaughtered an older animal that was strictly on grass and the meat graded 'choice'.  Their calves are known for getting up and eating within a few minutes after birth, plus they have a rapid growth rate.  It's not unusual to wean a calf that's almost as tall as it's mama and at least 40% of it's mama's weight. Plus they are 100% angus. 

did they come from breeding smaller framed angus together over time or did they come from a random mutation?

FutureBreeder2013 said:

did they come from breeding smaller framed angus together over time or did they come from a random mutation?

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Lowlines were developed by "accident" in the Govt. funded, Trangie Research Center, in Australia.  What Trangie did was import Angus genetics from Canada, America & Scotland during the 1920's - 1940's & then they closed the herd.  The earliest imports included a heavy influence of Blackcap Revolution from the famous Glencarnock herd in Canada.  It was a research station, but they never intended to "create" a separate breed of cattle.  Their main goal & purpose, was to raise superior Angus genetics to sell to the Australian cattle producers.  Actually, many of the Sydney Angus Champions over the years trace back to that Trangie herd & the Blackcap Revolution genetics did a lot of winning at the old Chicago Show (now the NAILE in Louisville), back in the early 1900's.  They eventually decided to divide the Trangie herd into 3 groups, based on growth rates & test their efficiency.  The largest group became the high line.  The smallest became the low line.  The rest become the control line.  After several generations, the low line herd stabilized at 30% smaller size than the high line cattle.  So, Lowline Angus are basically your early 1900 Angus cattle and they are what Angus actually used to look like without "crossbreeding" or maybe I should I say "breed improvement".  If you look at pictures, the average Lowline today is about the same size as the average 1940 model Angus. 

CM Cattle said:

Whats up with the miniture angus (lowline)? What are the advantages to having them. ???

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I raise Lowline Angus, but myself personally... I wouldn't own a "mini angus"!      Like Lazy G said, not all "mini angus" are Lowlines & I also want to point out that not all Lowlines are "mini angus".   Yes, many of the orginal Lowlines were selected to be as small as possible, because the early importers were mainly trying to market to them as backyard pets.  A big part of that was because the Australians tried to keep all the bigger ones & wanted an arm & a leg for them.  What I've been told, by Americans & Australians both, is that a lot of what got imported originally were the Australian culls, which is why the newer Australian genetics are a lot more popular.  The newer Australian genetics are also bigger.  Quartermaster, the 1st bull imported into the USA was only around 39 inches tall.  In contrast, Doc Holliday was 48.5 inches tall & 1465 lbs. when he last got measured/weighed back in 2007.  He's likely slightly bigger now.  That's at least 4 frame scores & probably 5!  I've got a Zeffirelli son & his sire is 50 inches.  I've got a Yes Yes Yes son & his sire is 49 inches.  That Yes son, might top 50 before all is said & done.   The difference in height between Doc Holliday & Q-master is probably the difference in Hannibal & OCC Anchor.                           


I'd say that the #1 advantage of having a Lowline is their efficiency.  Like Justin stated, the 1/2 bloods will gain weight eating virtually nothing & like Lazy G stated, they can be finished on grass.  You will not have nearly the feed bill.  And it's not just because they are smaller & don't eat as much... they convert what they do eat at an extremely high rate.  Calves, cows, feeders... you will save $$ feeding them all & they will stay in great shape.  You wont need your creep feeder.  You could still use it, but it wont be necessary. 

Downsizing... If you like frame 3, 4 & 5 cattle, Lowline X's will be right up your alley.   Smaller cows may not wean heavier calves, but they usually do wean more total lbs. of beef per acre, due to increased stocking rates.

Width & guts... these cattle will widen anything & give them guts too. 

Another big selling point is calving ease.  Most think about the advantages of using a Lowline bull on any breed of virgin heifers, but the Lowline females themselves are easy calving for their size.

Carcass quality is another selling point.  I've got a weanling bull calf out of a 16 genestar donor cow.  I've got a yearling bull that is sired by a 15 genestar bull & out of a 14 genestar donor cow.  Doc Holliday scored in the top 1% of all breeds tested for Marbling on MMI's DNA test (128 markers).  Out of several thousand feedlot steers... 0 was the average score for high select, +7 was the average score for low choice, +14 was the average score for choice & +20 was the average for high choice.  Doc Holliday is +25.23!  However, Bluey is like a +80 something!!  That's probably kobe beef!!  Anyway... like Lazy G mentioned, Lowline steers can finish & grade choice on grass.  My friend in Indiana has only had 1 grassfed Lowline cross steer that didn't grade choice.  It was harvest at a younger age, but it still graded high select.       

Temperament is another... I've literally taken non-broke Lowline calves & had them at a major show a week or 2 later.  I guess a disadvantage of this is that I sometimes get in trouble for not having the hair trained.  (lol)

Smaller animals are also easier on pasture, particularly in wet situations.  Not only do they not destroy as much surface area per step, but they don't go in as deep either. 

You can get buy with less equipment & smaller equipment (less $$ invested).   You can get by with inferior handling facilities too... extremely inferior! 

Not to mention that many Lowlines are very good quality wise. 

Although I said that the #1 advantage was feed effeciency, it very well may be marketability!  And that market is still growing.... I had 1,900+ vists to my website in the month of March!  1,300+ were unique visits!  Just about any fullblood Lowline female will sell for $2,500 minimum & 90% will sell for $3,000+... I averaged over $5,000, in 2008, on fullblood heifer calves & I turned I don't know how many people away.  I also helped other people sell Lowline cattle in Kentucky, Illinois, Alabama, North Carolina, Indiana, Ohio, Missouri & Michigan, over the last year, because I didn't have anything left to sell.   Commercial breeders are using them more & more.  I've got a guy in Kansas who wants 175 straws of semen from me & he's using Lowline semen from a 1/2 blood Lowline X Tarentaise bull that I sold last year also!  He's AI breeding several hundred heifers to Lowline bulls & he's cleaning up with percentage Lowline bulls too.   I think he's breeding a handful of heifers to another breed, as an experiment, but the vast majority will be bred Lowline.  He's tried Lowline bulls & he likes what he ended up with.   The snowball is just getting bigger & bigger...        
                 
I could probably think of others, including being perfect for 1st time exhibitors, but that's plenty for now.

TJ

Thanks, I saw a post about lowlines and it just got me thinking.

TJ, Have you personally been to Australia to check out the original roots of the breed?  You should write a book about the breed!  Oh Silly, me you just did!  (thumbsup)  How are you driving traffic to your site?  Are you listed in several Lowline directories that's helping get traffic to your site?  Should I post some of those pictures I found to show the OP the Lowline cattle your talking about?  (lol)

Tony

RSC said:

TJ, Have you personally been to Australia to check out the original roots of the breed?  You should write a book about the breed!  Oh Silly, me you just did!  (thumbsup)  How are you driving traffic to your site?  Are you listed in several Lowline directories that's helping get traffic to your site?  Should I post some of those pictures I found to show the OP the Lowline cattle your talking about?   (lol)

Tony

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Tony, never been to Australia, but 2 of my good friends have been to Australia to check them out.  Plus, I am good friends with a former Australian breeder & know another Australian breeder fairly well too. 

RE writing a book... the above is a short story compared to some of my previous writings on this subject.  (lol)

RE driving traffic... GOOGLE is the #1 reason.  My high ranking in Google, Yahoo & MSN for multiple search phrases, other breeders linking to my site, advertising in our breeds magazine, word of mouth, & I even occasionally get a handful from SP.  FWIW, I've never submitted my site to get listed on the ALR website... I need to get that done & I need to do some other things too, but even without that listing, I'm more than doing OK.  I get a few hits from our Eastern Lowline website, but I send twice as many visitors to that site as I receive.  In fact, I typically get 2 - 4 times the traffic as the Eastern Lowline site. 

RE the pictures... that last thing that you posted a picture of would certainly be "mini Angus"...  (lol) 

TJ

CM Cattle said:

Thanks, I saw a post about lowlines and it just got me thinking.

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If you have any other questions, just ask. 

Thanks,
TJ

TJ said:

RSC said:

TJ, Have you personally been to Australia to check out the original roots of the breed?  You should write a book about the breed!  Oh Silly, me you just did!  (thumbsup)  How are you driving traffic to your site?  Are you listed in several Lowline directories that's helping get traffic to your site?  Should I post some of those pictures I found to show the OP the Lowline cattle your talking about?   (lol)

Tony

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Tony, never been to Australia, but 2 of my good friends have been to Australia to check them out.  Plus, I am good friends with a former Australian breeder & know another Australian breeder fairly well too. 

RE writing a book... the above is a short story compared to some of my previous writings on this subject.   (lol)

RE driving traffic... GOOGLE is the #1 reason.  My high ranking in Google, Yahoo & MSN for multiple search phrases, other breeders linking to my site, advertising in our breeds magazine, word of mouth, & I even occasionally get a handful from SP.  FWIW, I've never submitted my site to get listed on the ALR website... I need to get that done & I need to do some other things too, but even without that listing, I'm more than doing OK.   I get a few hits from our Eastern Lowline website, but I send twice as many visitors to that site as I receive.  In fact, I typically get 2 - 4 times the traffic as the Eastern Lowline site. 

RE the pictures... that last thing that you posted a picture of would certainly be "mini Angus"...  (lol) 

TJ

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OK you got me stumped! How do you get a high ranking with Google?

FYI,  I googled LOWLINE and found those Pictures!  Not Mini Angus!  (lol)

Tony

RSC said:

OK you got me stumped! How do you get a high ranking with Google?

FYI,  I googled LOWLINE and found those Pictures!  Not Mini Angus!   (lol)

Tony

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RE Google Page Rank... a whole book could be written on that.   (lol)   In short, some links really help you, some really hurt you.   

FYI, it probably was a Lowline, although I bet if you go to that website, they will also call that "tiny tot" a "Mini Angus"... however, there are lots of people with small black calves (probably Dexter or Dexter crosses) that are not Lowline, but they call them Lowline trying to cash in on our name.       

You were talking about your genestar results in regards to marbling/tenderness for your lowline bulls.  What kind of IMF score do you get from ultrasound on a 16-18 star bull?  What about ribeye sq. in.?

HAFarm said:

You were talking about your genestar results in regards to marbling/tenderness for your lowline bulls.  What kind of IMF score do you get from ultrasound on a 16-18 star bull?  What about ribeye sq. in.?

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I know this isn't exactly answering your question & I apologize, but I haven't scanned any of my bulls.  All I can do is share the data that George Jenkins got from the scan of his 1/2 blood Lowline bull that he owns with Jerry Adamson.  He was sired by Dr Who, who "probably" doesn't have a lot of genestars (but that is just an assumption & a guess) & a fullblood cow who "probably" doesn't have a lot of genestars (but that also an assumption & a guess).  I think that Lazy G Lowlines has scanned some of their cattle & they did real well, but not sure if they genestar tested them.   

Anyway, here is the data on George's & Jerry's 1/2 blood bull taken at 240 days...   

Weight...      736 lbs.
REA...          10.44 inches
FT...             .23 inches
REA/CWT...  1.42 (inches per 100 lbs. of body weight)
IMF...            3.72
T-Score...      23 (tenderness... lower the number the better... I think that 23 is pretty good, but not sure)

Now again, that is a 1/2 blood bull & like I said, I am guessing that his parents don't have 14 or 15 genestars, but I may be wrong.  I have no scan data of my own, so take all that for what it's worth. 

Maybe Lazy G Lowlines can chime in...   

We had 5 bulls scanned in Denver this year. This was after 2 1/2 days in the trailer so they had some weight loss on the trip. These were all fullbloods


ID      Weight        REA          FT          REACWT          IMF        T Score      Age   
T2        992            12.05          .44          1.21              4.04          18            22 months
U2        614              9.31          .27          1.52              3.67          23            11 months 
U5        556              8.19          .22          1.47              3.68          28            10 months
U1        620              9.72          .26          1.57              4.17          27            11 months
U8        442              6.65          .09          1.50              3.64          15            10 months

We were told that the technician doing the test didn't like to give out tenderness scores less than thirty. So we felt pretty good about the scores we received, the last bull on the list we sold to some people in Utah and we took him to Denver to show him for them.  His 1/2 brother, Lazy G Bruce is now on Kit Pharo's semen sales list of Lowlines.

We have done some genestar tests, but the problem we have with genestar is they constantly change the parameters so it is hard to judge one animals performance against another because the number of stars keep changing. Now they don't do stars at all.

LazyGLowlines said:

We had 5 bulls scanned in Denver this year. This was after 2 1/2 days in the trailer so they had some weight loss on the trip. These were all fullbloods


ID       Weight        REA          FT           REACWT           IMF         T Score       Age   
T2        992             12.05           .44           1.21               4.04           18             22 months
U2        614               9.31           .27           1.52               3.67           23             11 months   
U5        556               8.19           .22           1.47               3.68           28             10 months
U1        620               9.72           .26           1.57               4.17           27             11 months
U8        442               6.65           .09           1.50               3.64           15             10 months

We were told that the technician doing the test didn't like to give out tenderness scores less than thirty. So we felt pretty good about the scores we received, the last bull on the list we sold to some people in Utah and we took him to Denver to show him for them.  His 1/2 brother, Lazy G Bruce is now on Kit Pharo's semen sales list of Lowlines.

We have done some genestar tests, but the problem we have with genestar is they constantly change the parameters so it is hard to judge one animals performance against another because the number of stars keep changing. Now they don't do stars at all.

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ok maybe bitting off more than a want here but please consider and correct me if I am wrong or at least give me some cud to chew on.  Those results and the ones above really are pretty average, when considering the weight people who like a lot of growth would thing they don't weigh nearly enough. What I mean is this, our bulls will have very similar IMF scores some lower some higher but the REA will be much higher and the weights of our registered Angus are much more.  Our REA will average 12 ADJ to a year and weight will average close to 1150.  If we are in this to produce bulls that will make our customers money by increasing REA, IMF, and pounds and not sacrifice maternal why go lowline.  Is it to cross with cows to get something more moderate?   

Although my statement is critical I am just trying to understand. I appreciate your willingness to share your data.

Not a Lowline breeder per se, but I've hung around with quite a few of em 

Lowline bulls are not going to be used to make traditional feeder cattle.  They are best when used in a grass-fed, or other low-imput scenarios.  The 1/2 Lowline females will keep in better flesh, raise a higher % of body weight calf, and they make excellent cows.  The money in Lowline cattle is in grass-fed beef and also seedstock.  When you sell an average fullblood heifer for 3k or more, how is that Lowline bull you used on your lowline cows not making you money?  I think that if there were more data on 1/2 Lowline bulls, you would find the scan data more commercially acceptable, along the lines of the Pharo, Ohlde, or Duff cattle. 

I don't find your comments critical at all, more curious than anything.  You have to understand that Lowlines are not gonna be weight cattle, but they will be very effecient cattle, even the 1/2 blood and lower % Lowline cattle. I'm sure that TJ and others can chime in, but this is how I see it in my experience with the Lowlines.

Olson Family Shorthorns is correct, what most people are not understanding is that we are not advocating that Fulblood Lowlines are going to replace commercial cattle in the feedlots. We are saying that when you get to a point where a 17-19" REA is way too big, then use these cattle to downsize to a more appropriate size cow, one that will raise a calf 1/2 her body weight at 6 months. And because she is smaller her feed intake will also be less.
One thing I hear over and over from end users is the prime area is getting too large, restaurateurs will go on and on about how hard it is to get a steak that is 8oz and isn't paper thin and hanging over the edges of the plate. Granted we all like a huge piece of meat ,but we also know that it really isn't good for us and as we get older it gets harder to digest a large lump of meat.
I know of a rancher in WY that raises 1/2 bloods, he is sold because they eat less and grow faster to a size that he can sell to a feedlot. He doesn't tell the feedlot he is selling Lowlines , he sells them as Angus. His customers are so happy with this end product that after 4 years of this he gets a premium price for his cattle ever time he sells them.

Also forgot to mention that percentage lowlines finished in feedlot (grained) finish quicker than traditional cattle. The North Dakota Extension Service has been studying lowline cattle for quite a few years now and there is quite a bit of documentation around how well lowllines work in the commercial market.  We're happy to see when someone is interested in more information around lowlines.  People don't believe lowlines work until they try it themselves, and then they're sold on 'em.  We're offering free semen on a couple lowline bulls, up to 5 straws and you pay shipping. 

Good posts by Lazy G  & here is my 2 cents...

#1.  a commercial producer, even grass fed producers, are not going to want fullblood Lowline calves.  They will likely want 1/2 blood or possibly lower percentages.  I've said it a bunch of times, but 50% & lower is what will have it's place in the commercial herds.  1/4 - 1/2 bloods will be ideal, IMHO.  Soon you will be able to register 1/4 bloods, you just wont be able to register them.  To get 1/4 to 1/2, you will use 1/2 to fullblood bulls on non-Lowline cows.  Or you can do it like the Chapman's buddy, Lenhard Angus Ranch, is doing out in Washington, and that is breeding low/moderate birth weight Angus to 1/2 Lowline cows.  I'm going to try to get picures this summer or fall, because I've been told that you can't believe how well that worked!  Actually, that is the smart way to do it, but you've got to have 1/2 blood females to do it.  Buying 1 bull is easier, but the 1/2 cows will be more efficient.        

#2.  Lazy G's scan data were all fullbloods, not what a grassfed or commercial producer would end up with, because the grassfeds & the commercial people will want the 1/2 blood offspring from those bulls.  

#3.  George Jenkins bull is a 1/2 blood & he was a weanling, not a yearling.  So let's look at that data again...

Weight...      736 lbs.
REA...          10.44 inches
FT...             .23 inches
REA/CWT...  1.42 (inches per 100 lbs. of body weight)
IMF...            3.72
T-Score...      23 (tenderness... lower the number the better... I think that 23 is pretty good, but not sure)

Now, if you adjust that to 365 days... here is approximately what you would get, assuming the WPDA is similar, but it will be slightly flawed...

Weight...     1085 lbs.
REA...          15.41 inches
FT...             .23 inches
REA/CWT... 1.42
IMF...           3.72
T-Score...     23

Again, it wont be exactly like that & I would assume that the fat thickness & the IMF could both be higher.  The Rib Eye area might not be quite that big, but the point is, if the calf had a 10 1/2 inch rib eye at 240 days, it will be plenty big enough.  Actually, that data looks a whole lot like what I would expect a yearling 1/2 blood steer to look like.  Maybe a 13 - 14 inch rib eye area. 

As Justin pointed out, Lowline cattle wont be weight cattle... but, they are very efficient cattle.  They wont get there quicker... but they will get there cheaper, with less feed & inputs.  He's also right that a 1/2 blood bull would rival Pharo, Duff or Ohlde genetics.      

One reason why I'd consider them is because the REA per 100 lbs. of body weight.  Based on your post a 12 inch rib eye on a 1150 lb. bull, means that you are just barely over 1 inch per 100 lbs.   Most fullblood Lowlines are 1.25-1.75 inches per 100 lbs.  So you've got more steak with less size.  If you are selling retail meat... you'll potentially make more $$ that way.  Your customers will probably like a bigger rib eye area & the Lowline X will give you a little hybrid kick, even though it's Angus to Angus.  

One other thing that Lowline cattle will do is that they will widen just about anything.  

Cross Creek Farms (Angus breeder), Joe Moffit (Angus breeder), Lenhard Angus Ranch (Angus breeder), Smokey Mountain Farms (Red Angus), are just a few of the Angus breeders that I know that are using Lowline cattle to cross with Angus.  Dori, who posts on here, started out with Angus & then switched to Lowline & Lowline cross.  I'm missing a bunch of others, I'm sure.  

Here is the Cross Creek website if you want more info about crossing Angus with Lowline...  lots of facts & data on that website...

www.crosscreekcattle.com


Hope that helps...

TJ