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Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2019, 03:27:59 PM »
Need to start compiling names of cattle that could possibly inherit the mutation-Wonder if X Bars bull that sired the extreme BWS may have carried the gene O0

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2019, 08:11:00 PM »
HC Vanguard 22Z was possibly a carrier as he was a double bred captain mark 27c but the huge calves he threw werent muscle bound or anything, they just came out looking a month or two old at times.  His sire, Major Leroy, has had 120+lb calves all over the globe and both his dam and his paternal granddam were 2000lb tanks.  I think these are just huge cattle that have huge blrthweights. 


 As far as the myo-  I think its a sham just as ds is.  The prevalency of homozygosity, to the extent that its level of expression is disabling, is unbelievably remote.  Just as with ds, herds heavily influenced with carriers have inbred extensively with little to no issues worthy of mention.  The culprit genetics arent new.  Theyre not 10 years old or even 20.   These same genetics have HEAVILY highlighted both the American (ds) and Canadian (myo) herdbooks literally forever.  Why now is this selective outrage justified?  More bullshit defensive marketing imo.

 To put it in perspective,  I bought two new bulls this year in The Whos your daddy sale that are both e226 carriers. : a Goose son, Muridale Teal, and the most complete shorthorn bull Ive ever seen, Saskvalley Editor 75E.  I honestly didnt look at the supplement sheet until after the sale.  Their myo status wasnt -and still isnt- a consideration for me.  I bid on a 3rd bullion that sale as well. A white Saskvalley bull, who I later noticed was also a carrier.  So clearly somethings there thats impacting phenotype but just as I do with all traits, Ill let my environment and management (or lack thereof) self govern whose progeny falls out and whose genetics continue to influence.  Ill just keep stacking the very best bulls I can find: alamo,roan ranger, editor, etc and well just see where the cards fall.
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Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2019, 08:18:59 PM »
What about your cows? Do you think there may be comparable traits? Myostaten doesnt appear to have been on the radar (in terms of testing- sale annonucements) very long. The only reason I brought this up in your case is it seemed like a freak deal of sorts-You always seemed to go for functional cattle with non-off the wall traits-maybe there"s something in the woodpile that nobody would have been aware of a few years ago But in my ever so humble opinion: THERE IS NO REASON to dismiss or to dispose of good cattle Or" who struck John?" knowingly or not. Some of  the Canadian cattle per example are way good-Just breed em clean if they work for you O0
« Last Edit: July 20, 2019, 10:34:07 AM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline Okotoks

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2019, 03:15:17 PM »
What about your cows? Do you think there may be comparable traits? Myostaten doesnt appear to have been on the radar (in terms of testing- sale annonucements) very long. The only reason I brought this up in your case is it seemed like a freak deal of sorts-You always seemed to go for functional cattle with non-off the wall traits-maybe there"s something in the woodpile that nobody would have been aware of a few years ago But in my ever so humble opinion: THERE IS NO REASON to dismiss or to dispose of good cattle Or" who struck John?" knowingly or not. Some of  the Canadian cattle per example are way good-Just breed em clean if they work for you O0
Myostatin is real and it needs management! It takes a carrier bull to follow a carrier bulls daughters to find that out. (Typically it just drifts along in a herd until you bring in that second bull. A neighbor of ours bought a small herd with some very good cows in it. The last year the young cows had been bred back to their half brother(their sire was a purchased bull and was a great bull with great all round EPD's, actual weights and eye appealing moderate offspring) Long story short three difficult vet assisted deliveries, one dead calf. He bought a myostatin free bull and this year the problem was solved. At our annual Alberta meeting this year a breeder stood up and said he had believed exactly what Xbar states above but after this calf crop using a carrier on carriers he said the myostatin test was cheap and the issue real!  It's all about getting the information and managing it. You can use carriers but in my experience using them back on carrier cows is an expensive mistake. It's not just a Shorthorn problem, it exists in several breeds.
The E226X was introduced to Shorthorns from Maine Anjou crosses, some legit , some not. In Canada almost all the carriers trace to a cow that produced two maternal brothers born in 1980 and 1981. The main impact from those two brothers comes from 3 grandsons of the one born in 1993,1996 and 2000 and 1 grandson of the other bull born in 1993. So its late 1990's/2000 that it really starting to be distributed through the breed by those very popular and widely used bulls or their descendants.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2019, 03:47:30 PM by Okotoks »

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2019, 04:44:47 PM »
Same comment Im sure they must have been and still are good bulls-So if there was documentation like TH PHA and DS it would be a start.If you have a carrier just dont breed it to one O0

Offline GM

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2019, 04:56:53 PM »
What about your cows? Do you think there may be comparable traits? Myostaten doesnt appear to have been on the radar (in terms of testing- sale annonucements) very long. The only reason I brought this up in your case is it seemed like a freak deal of sorts-You always seemed to go for functional cattle with non-off the wall traits-maybe there"s something in the woodpile that nobody would have been aware of a few years ago But in my ever so humble opinion: THERE IS NO REASON to dismiss or to dispose of good cattle Or" who struck John?" knowingly or not. Some of  the Canadian cattle per example are way good-Just breed em clean if they work for you O0
Myostatin is real and it needs management! It takes a carrier bull to follow a carrier bulls daughters to find that out. (Typically it just drifts along in a herd until you bring in that second bull. A neighbor of ours bought a small herd with some very good cows in it. The last year the young cows had been bred back to their half brother(their sire was a purchased bull and was a great bull with great all round EPD's, actual weights and eye appealing moderate offspring) Long story short three difficult vet assisted deliveries, one dead calf. He bought a myostatin free bull and this year the problem was solved. At our annual Alberta meeting this year a breeder stood up and said he had believed exactly what Xbar states above but after this calf crop using a carrier on carriers he said the myostatin test was cheap and the issue real!  It's all about getting the information and managing it. You can use carriers but in my experience using them back on carrier cows is an expensive mistake. It's not just a Shorthorn problem, it exists in several breeds.
The E226X was introduced to Shorthorns from Maine Anjou crosses, some legit , some not. In Canada almost all the carriers trace to a cow that produced two maternal brothers born in 1980 and 1981. The main impact from those two brothers comes from 3 grandsons of the one born in 1993,1996 and 2000 and 1 grandson of the other bull born in 1993. So its late 1990's/2000 that it really starting to be distributed through the breed by those very popular and widely used bulls or their descendants.
Who was the cow and two maternal brothers you referenced?

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2019, 05:38:39 PM »
Started being distributed in the mid 90s

So 25 years later it was decided there was a problem?

Both of the biggest herds in Western Canada have line bred extensively to these carriers.

Is it really being implied that these folks pulled a George Ahlschwede and just kept quiet about the genetic defect train wrecks occurring within their herds over the past two decades?
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Offline Okotoks

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2019, 05:56:14 PM »
Started being distributed in the mid 90s

So 25 years later it was decided there was a problem?

Both of the biggest herds in Western Canada have line bred extensively to these carriers.

Is it really being implied that these folks pulled a George Ahlschwede and just kept quiet about the genetic defect train wrecks occurring within their herds over the past two decades?
It takes awhile to spread throughout a herd and only half the offspring are carriers. If you use a non carrier relative back on the carriers you are going to get unaffected calves and only 25% will be carriers. What is 25 years 3 to 5 generations? If you started with a free herd there is no way you would see anything in the first generation and if you had a big bull battery with free sires you may not see it for 3 or 4. I'm not implying anything, does everything have to be a conspiracy these days. Genetic defects take time to spread and non lethal ones that are not always expressed the same take longer to identify. In any case there is a simple inexpensive test so breeders have that option if they choose to use it.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2019, 06:42:49 PM »
The simple tests are important-along with having an idea which lines may be infected or have the propensity to become a carrier when exposed to a carrier-Very basic stuff.So somebody say which cattle they suspect or have had experience with-Dont be coy boys O0
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 04:30:18 PM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline beebe

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2019, 08:09:50 PM »
One of the reasons that I brought this up is that I have an opportunity to raise Piedmontese calves for a guy at a nice premium.  I am wondering if I would be getting myself into something I might regret, particularly calving.

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2019, 10:34:06 PM »
Buster 14k born in 2000 =>24M in 2002 => Saskvalley Ramrod 2005. Idk about the latters status but when the last of the grandsons born in 2000 is in many cases 10+  generations in that 25 year span.   Dozens of pedigrees where carriers have been stacked literally 5 and six times in the past 3-4 generations. 

No one implied a conspiracy. But if the prevalence of myostatin starts to surface to any real extent outside western Canada, then clearly this becomes a transparency issue with these breeders who HAD TO HAVE HAD MANY homozygous carriers, just based on the sheer number of times these genetics have been compounded within their herds.
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Offline Okotoks

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2019, 10:56:46 PM »
Buster 14k born in 2000 =>24M in 2002 => Saskvalley Ramrod 2005. Idk about the latters status but when the last of the grandsons born in 2000 is in many cases 10+  generations in that 25 year span.   Dozens of pedigrees where carriers have been stacked literally 5 and six times in the past 3-4 generations. 

No one implied a conspiracy. But if the prevalence of myostatin starts to surface to any real extent outside western Canada, then clearly this becomes a transparency issue with these breeders who HAD TO HAVE HAD MANY homozygous carriers, just based on the sheer number of times these genetics have been compounded within their herds.
Ramrod never had a significant number of calves hit the ground until 2008, so the first offspring were not producing until 2009, 2010 and they sure were not half sibling matings. Couple the free offspring with the out cross bloodlines being used and it takes time to get to a significant number of carriers. Some double muscled calves are born fine especially out of mature cows so the issues take time to surface and a lot of people don't believe it's a problem or recognize the problem even when it happens. A significant number of breeders are testing their sale bulls in Canada, I guess it's up to the buyers to decide what they want. As of  Friday July 19, 2019 it's now mandatory to test bulls in Australia and donor cows for myostatin. The British Association is making testing mandatory as well. The article put out by the American Association seemed to down play the the importance. Some people claim it's a plus.

Offline aj

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2019, 08:44:09 AM »
I wonder about Muridale Raw Hide 6e's status. He looks like one hell of a bull by his picture.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline aj

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2019, 08:49:15 AM »
I wonder out loud about the popular AI crossbred bulls used in the club calf industry? Could the mutation be floating around out there.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline Medium Rare

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2019, 09:44:25 AM »
I wonder about Muridale Raw Hide 6e's status. He looks like one hell of a bull by his picture.

He was listed as clean on their sale sheet. I believe they've been testing their sale bulls for a few years now.

 

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