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Offline Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2019, 05:36:32 PM »
Is this all going to come down to validating MarkTs  G9 theory?  O0

What theory......same one as Enticer,

Online Medium Rare

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #61 on: July 23, 2019, 05:37:16 PM »
The sire test is another interesting complication.

With its ability to affect bw, ww, yw, yield, marbling, and who knows what else it's worth scrolling the pedigrees entered. Those bulls are basically the foundation of the new carcass epds moving forward as well as having an affect on the breed's growth epds. Breeders are spending a significant amount of money to nominate bulls, the ASA is spending significant amounts of money advertising the results, and others are making breeding decisions based on bull comparisons. They're pulling 50k samples on all the calves, so single step is applying the comparisons made in the test across a wide swath of the the breed's genetic base. The influence of the results of those comparisons will linger throughout the epd flows for years to come. Seems significant, especially considering we are left in the dark as to which bulls are carriers.

In order for the data to be sorted accurately, you would expect the need for contemporary groups to be split on a carrier non-carrier basis. I'm sure this would limit the data statistically as they struggle to get enough calves as it is, but it's worth considering the implications.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2019, 05:43:26 PM »
The only people who even hint that Shorthorns are unadulterated are the native breeders. However when you consider that: forms of double muscling were around in the 19th century, and that a number of the breeds exhibiting " this and that"-(Particularly Maines) are directly descended from Shorthorns ; then its not as much fun as a witch hunt-its an acknowledgement by most of the persons responding to this thread that you need to have an idea of "what you got"-And breed accordingly.- Cows 101 O0
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 05:49:45 PM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2019, 06:03:45 PM »
The only people who even hint that Shorthorns are unadulterated are the native breeders. However when you consider that: forms of double muscling were around in the 19th century, and that a number of the breeds exhibiting " this and that"-(Particularly Maines) are directly descended from Shorthorns ; then its not as much fun as a witch hunt-its an acknowledgement by most of the persons responding to this thread that you need to have an idea of "what you got"-And breed accordingly.- Cows 101 O0

Mark...agree and don't agreed!
Yes, the list of double muscling breeds have lots of ones with Shorthorn influence as Belgian Blue, Maines, Normando (discovered it soon). But, all these  ones also have on the other side of your genetics native local breeds from northwest Europe. So the DM gene can to be originated from mother breeds side. Just a speculation.

Offline aj

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2019, 06:51:38 PM »
Wasn't Enticer the non * bull that pure pure pure. What is his status......
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #65 on: July 24, 2019, 05:54:09 PM »
All over the place-He was so diverse he may have been sold 10 or 15 times O0

Offline GM

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #66 on: July 24, 2019, 07:51:24 PM »
All over the place-He was so diverse he may have been sold 10 or 15 times O0
Curious what this means

Offline coyote

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #67 on: July 24, 2019, 11:47:35 PM »
Quote
The post to Medium Rare was somewhat tongue in cheek-You and Okotocks more or less have set forth  the  possible use of maines back in the 70s and maybe later  who were also big etc-I was given to understand by a pretty knowledgeable person that Etula (Quebec AI Service ?) may have been one that was used quite a bit under the guise of something like Flag breeding or others and he could have been a carrier. I  stated  years ago that I thought Real Silver was a maine-I was told that by some of the same people mentioned earlier one of which was Harold Hoskins. He was a dead ringer and looked alot like the spotted Eagle shown above-AND A BIG  BULL-way too thick to resemble the cattle he purportedly went back to. Awhile back there was a side profile of a FREAKY red bull on here by Muridale that  resembled the Mohican bull from way back-as does Hatfield Govenor   O0
Muridale Buster 14K is a Myo Carrier.
Muridale Matt 37Y was tested Myostatin free
Hatfield Governor ended up being a myo carrier.
Over the years we have only had 2 double muscle calves. I would of thought we would of had more because we have used at least 4 bulls that we know of that had been Myo carriers and we have been line breeding too. The one calf that we had was a big calf at birth but the cow was able to push it out on her own. One thing we noticed was when we were moving the cattle to the next pasture a few miles away, the double muscled calves had a hard time keeping up with the rest and were sucking air. When we sold these calves with the rest of our commercial calves they were the highest selling calves amongst the group.
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Offline justintime

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #68 on: July 25, 2019, 08:40:40 AM »
I have lots to learn yet about myostatin, but it does appear that it is not something new in the Shorthorn breed. Some breeders in the UK have told me, that double muscling in Shorthorns can be traced back to the very early days of the breed. When I was in Scotland a few years ago, old time breeders told me that double muscled calves appeared occasionally back then.  They say that some of the breeds that evolved from Shorthorn blood, such as the Belgian Blue and Maines, got the double muscling traits from the myostatin strains passed on by their Shorthorn fore fathers. I have also read that myostatin is found in many breeds. It appears that Shorthorns may have more cases of it than some others. So far, I have only tested about 20 animals for myostatin and the results have been all over the map. I started testing my donors and my present herd sires and I am hoping to get some more done soon. I have found it almost impossible to predict which animals will be carriers and which will not. I have had myostatin carriers from genetics from all parts of the world- some straight Canadian, some US,and some Aussie bloodlines. I have had completely clean animals from all these different bloodlines as well.
The British Shorthorn society has recently passed a rule that ET calves can only be registered if they are from parents that carry one or less myostatin strains. ET calves from a parent with more than one myostatin strain can be registered only once they are tested and found to only have one or no strains. I have talked with one breeder from the UK and he says that they are walking very carefully in regards to myostatin, as it is not just a negative condition. He says that myostatin is also linked to tenderness in beef, and that is why some packers are paying a premium for myostatin carriers. Like most of these things, everyone has a theory and it gets confusing trying to sort through to the truth. I have found some of the research articles confusing as well, and some contradict each other. I am spending two weeks in Ireland and England in early August and I am hoping to find out more from their expertise in this area. I have not tested any of my former herd sires yet, but I am pretty certain some will prove to be myostatin carriers. I may be surprised, but that is what I am thinking right now. Like Scot mentioned, I have only had two double muscled calves in my herd, and strangely, both were from bloodlines I bought to add to my herd. The first one came from a cow I purchased in Alberta many years ago. Straight Canadian beef breeding, but the calf was line bred to a known myostatin carrier we know of today.  The second was from a set of embryos I purchased a few years ago. Again, both sire and dam were Canadian beef breeding and also like Scot mentioned, both these calves topped the market when I sold them. I did not have any calving issues from either one of these calves. Both females calved by themselves and the calves were extremely good looking until they got a bit older and the heavy muscling began to appear.
Like many others, I am scrambling to learn as much as I can about this condition, and I hope I can sort through the truth and the fiction and find out how to deal properly with it. It appears that one strain of myostatin may result in more calving and muscling issues than the others. I need more proof if this is actually true or not as well.
A commercial bull buyer who has purchased several bulls from me over the years, also purchased a Speckle Park bull in 2018. He told me that the Speckle Park breeder told him that he should not breed his Shorthorn cross cows to the Speckle Park bull because he could end up with some double muscled calves. He did breed 4-5 Shorthorn cows to the Speckle Park bull and all the calves are normal. I have never heard this from anyone else, but I guess there may be a chance this is true. Speckle Park are derived from blending Shorthorn and Angus bloodlines back in the 60s. I also have had an Angus breeder tell me that he had a purebred Angus calf that was double muscled a few years ago as well. If this is the case, it makes me wonder how significant myostatin is in other breeds? I have read that double muscling can be also found in Simmental as well. Again, I am not sure how common this is. Lots to learn yet!
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Offline Okotoks

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #69 on: July 25, 2019, 09:54:13 AM »
An interesting presentation done by the Speckle Park. The variant genes affecting myostatin were only discovered between 1998 and 2000 and the availabble tests are relatively recent. I thought the variation in types due to selection also interesting.


http://canadianspecklepark.ca/sites/default/files/files/DM%20AGM%20Revised%20Dec%202016%20rev%20May%202017.pdf
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 09:57:01 AM by Okotoks »

Offline Dale

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #70 on: July 26, 2019, 07:55:11 AM »
GAFA MOCHICAN is in Hot Commodity's pedigree.  In our pastures the cows expect calves by 3 myostatin untested AI sires with Mohican in the pedigree this fall.  Since there are many Shorthorns with Maine genetics in them in the U.S., on the pedigree as well as some whose breeders "forgot to write it down," there is urgency for DM/myostatin testing!  Many breeders are also using Canadian cattle tracing back to Mohican.  Using non-carriers should be a priority. 

I salute the Canadian breeders for their leadership and doing the right thing!  Our Homeplace Hot Commodity 1625 is being tested.  Testing sooner saves money.  What is the turn-around time for myostatin testing?  Is there still time to test cattle for this fall's sales?   

Offline aj

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #71 on: July 26, 2019, 12:21:34 PM »
Interesting........I noticed Mandalong Super Flag on back also. I can't remember what thoughts were on him.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #72 on: July 26, 2019, 07:27:38 PM »
I have talked with one breeder from the UK and he says that they are walking very carefully in regards to myostatin, as it is not just a negative condition. He says that myostatin is also linked to tenderness in beef, and that is why some packers are paying a premium for myostatin carriers. quote]

Im not gonna try not to wade into this debate too far as I have talked long and hard with many people but Grant I would have to agree with you and the proof for carcass data would be to look at the carriers sold in sales this past winter/spring who were ultrasounded and for the most part blew the rest out of the water. I can see both sides of the battle but in all this talk, very little has been spoke of actual breeding management linked with in-herd knowledge. The progressive breeders who have always bred like a chess game with 3 moves (years) ahead in mind arent the ones melting down over an older trait. I believe transparency is key moving forward but I think it should be left for breeders to be managed and shouldnt  be put in the circle of shame for what it is.
Curious as to whether Morisons supermarket in Britain is two years running gold winner of world champion steak is with myo carriers and influence of it in the shorthorns there.

For what my opinion is worth 🤷🏽‍♂️


Russ
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Offline aj

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #73 on: July 27, 2019, 01:23:04 AM »
If the myostatin gene carriers are significantly better carcasses.......is there potential for a branded beef line? If genetic tests get cheaper....you would have a way to dna select a superior tasting beef product.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Myostatin gene
« Reply #74 on: July 27, 2019, 08:56:09 AM »
GAFA MOCHICAN is in Hot Commodity's pedigree.  In our pastures the cows expect calves by 3 myostatin untested AI sires with Mohican in the pedigree this fall.  Since there are many Shorthorns with Maine genetics in them in the U.S., on the pedigree as well as some whose breeders "forgot to write it down," there is urgency for DM/myostatin testing!  Many breeders are also using Canadian cattle tracing back to Mohican.  Using non-carriers should be a priority. 

I salute the Canadian breeders for their leadership and doing the right thing!  Our Homeplace Hot Commodity 1625 is being tested.  Testing sooner saves money.  What is the turn-around time for myostatin testing?  Is there still time to test cattle for this fall's sales?

There is zero urgency.  You along with everyone else has been unknowingly breeding descendants and until the associations starting publishing advertisements Er I mean articles, you likely hadnt even heard of it mysostatin. I know I hadnt.   How can you dismiss the lack of occurrence?  Youve just heard from the largest Canadian shorthorn breeders who  have extensively linebred carriers and both stated that out of what one could assume would be thousands of calves, that they collectively have had 4 afflicted calves.  These breed associations and sham labs will make a small fortune inciting fear and hysteria making a mountain out of a molehill. . Quit buying into their revenue scam. 
-SASKVALLEY EDITOR-    -XBAR EMPIRE-    -LEVELDALE GENESIS-

 

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