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Author Topic: New Herdsire  (Read 34477 times)

Offline idalee

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #90 on: February 04, 2021, 03:33:30 PM »
So,  according to the Canadian DigitalBeef data,  Robert has 56 calves with recorded birth weights at 88 pounds average,  40 calves with weaning weights at 559 pounds average and 27 calves with yearling weights at 864 pounds.   The bull himself weighted 85 pounds at birth,  weaned at 520 and had a yearling weight at 950.    He takes a great picture but the numbers are not exceptional. 

Online knabe

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #91 on: February 04, 2021, 09:13:46 PM »
He takes a great picture but the numbers are not exceptional.

what was his own numbers.

numbers are below good. they are probably unacceptable?

his own numbers, 528 and 945

was he sick? something else? bad winter for both him and a calf crop?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2021, 09:15:48 PM by knabe »
"The generation that told us to question authority, has now become the Authority we cannot question!"

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #92 on: February 04, 2021, 10:41:46 PM »
Calves up there that grow up in the extremes out on the range and are then developed on what amounts to a roughage ration So they are not going to exhibit the early gains of Midwest cattle who are fed well Which I think all cattle should be They are more or less later maturing due to the environment and resources but mature into at least the size and weights of the cattle down here O0
« Last Edit: February 05, 2021, 07:33:37 AM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline Duncraggan

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #93 on: February 06, 2021, 10:51:04 AM »
So,  according to the Canadian DigitalBeef data,  Robert has 56 calves with recorded birth weights at 88 pounds average,  40 calves with weaning weights at 559 pounds average and 27 calves with yearling weights at 864 pounds.   The bull himself weighted 85 pounds at birth,  weaned at 520 and had a yearling weight at 950.    He takes a great picture but the numbers are not exceptional.
Well, looking at these figures, at least his BW figures are true. <5% deviation. That is the only figure that management can't really influence, unless you are dancing with the devil!
The other figures are very easily manipulated with management factors. Taking into consideration the breeder's low maintenance operation, higher weaning weights may be expected, 8% higher than the sire. Achieved! Due to performance testing the yearling figures would, expectedly, deviate from the curve.
Does one really want "exceptional" figures in a successful and established breeding programme?
Unless you have to correct a problem in your herd, "exceptional" figures shouldn't really be necessary. I think that the objective at this stage would be to create "exceptional" phenotype, and what better can one ask for than this sire!

Offline idalee

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #94 on: February 06, 2021, 04:42:50 PM »
To each,  his own!   It seems pointless to operate a registered cattle operation and continuously use average bulls.   Maybe my terminology is at fault,  but personally I wouldn't use a bull who was not better than what I already have. 

Offline carl

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #95 on: February 07, 2021, 09:07:21 AM »
To each,  his own!   It seems pointless to operate a registered cattle operation and continuously use average bulls.   Maybe my terminology is at fault,  but personally I wouldn't use a bull who was not better than what I already have.
I'm wondering what you would want to change about this bull in order to use him in your herd? It seems you aren't happy with his individual performance at weaning and yearling. Is this correct?
You got me curious enough to look up the bulls epds. It looks like he is well above breed average for the calving ease and birth weight traits. He's also well above breed average for stay ability and marbling. And well below breed average for ribeye. The traits he is breed average in appear to be the growth traits. Is this what you are referring to when you call him an average bull? And if so, is that because you think we need to increase the performance in our Shorthorn cattle?
It seems to me, if our cattle are big enough(and I think they are), that breed average in these traits is right about where we want to be.
I think the bull is pretty hard to fault phenotypically. I think a herd of 500 of his daughters would be pretty profitable. I  own 1 daughter who just weaned her first calf. I'll know a lot more about her in 5 years, but so far I'm liking what I'm seeing.

Online Medium Rare

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #96 on: February 07, 2021, 09:57:33 AM »
It looks like I'm one of the few with a daughter in the states. While I did not sample him for growth reasons, her performance was definitely not an issue. If she grows up to look like the pictures of his mature daughters while still being in production at that age I'll wish I had 99 straws left instead of just 9.

Having said that, I do believe there are a lot of shorthorn breeders who do not know how bad their calves would get blown away in the feedlot. Growing too slow and quitting way too early the last few years got a lot of breeders put on the do not buy list. Considering the average herd size, that's probably incorrect and I should say it got a certain color put on the do not buy list.

Offline Duncraggan

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #97 on: February 07, 2021, 12:10:40 PM »
I think this can all be attributed to the massive divide between show genetics and commercial genetics. They are, practically, two different breeds!

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #98 on: February 07, 2021, 04:46:43 PM »
I would certainely agree for the most part-But I would guess Idalees cattle are farther away from show cattle than Muridale Thermal Energy Jits Cattle, SaskValleys influence on and on JMO-I really havent seen very many native (dual-milker oriented side NOT Leader 21st etc) lately that would step in the ring with ALOT of those Canadian Cattle At the very least in terms of stoutness  O0

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #99 on: February 15, 2021, 03:47:31 PM »
Shorthorn average is more performance than my environment can support.   Exposes the worst part about epds. People see the percentile ranking as better or worse instead of appropriately using them to identify and match a level of performance within the cattle to their environment.

Offline beebe

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #100 on: February 15, 2021, 04:44:50 PM »
Shorthorn average is more performance than my environment can support.   Exposes the worst part about epds. People see the percentile ranking as better or worse instead of appropriately using them to identify and match a level of performance within the cattle to their environment.
Very well said.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #101 on: February 21, 2021, 09:06:13 PM »
LETS ALL TAKE BRITISH BREED MATERNAL CATTLE OUT OF THIER TRUE ENVIRONMENT AND TRY TO COMPARE THIER INDECES TO BOS INDICOS OR WHATEVER IN  SOUTH TEXAS OR SOME MILKING SHOTHORN forgotten prairie FANTASY WORLD- NEED TO HAVE  RANGE CATTLE TO THRIVE IN THAT ENVIRONMENT. AT the very LEAST in some of the SHORTHORN BREEDING I HAVE SEEN.  Even in less hostile environments IVE LOST COUNT OF HOW MANY SMALL HERDS  IVE SEEN THAT ARE RUN BY EARTH SHOE YUPPIES or overgrazing wanna be's  WHO HAVE PITIFUL STARVING ANIMALS Want  good looking shorthorn (appearing) angus ( appearing) or hereford types to survive in a very harsh environment? Breed them to brahmas beefmasters brafords etc THE  CATTLE IVE SEEN  OTHER THAN CROSSING OUT that way  ARE THE CLUBBY CHARx AMERICAN-HEREFORD APPEARING- SHORTHORN WHO KNOWS WHAT THAT ARE ALL OVER THE TEXAS OKLAHOMA SALES THE CALVES LOOK GOOD CONTRARY TO SOME PERCEPTIONS Probably because these cattle come from range cattle not far back in thier lineage O0
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 10:01:19 AM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #102 on: February 22, 2021, 08:32:25 PM »
Where specifically on the map is their true environment?   Im in North Texas 40 inches of rain a year where most people running a cow per 4 acres.   Average growth epds is plenty here.  Do you want to see some thin calves use you a trait leader growth bull.   Ill put the mid 40s WW bulls up against any here. 

Offline oakview

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #103 on: February 23, 2021, 09:18:52 AM »
In my 60 years of cattle experience, the one recurring theme has been performance.  The AI stud books from the late 60's pushed performance, breed associations pushed performance, cattle shows and sales have pushed performance.  The oldest ABS bull catalog I have, over 50 years old, graphically demonstrates how much your calves sired by their bulls will out perform calves out of other bulls.  I have read the "banker and the bull" story so many times I'm sick of it.  The exotic breeds were brought over here under the banner of how much they will improve the performance of your calves.  I have lived through the ASA's SPR and WHR programs.  I personally participated in the old ASA sire test.  Every time I sell bulls at the beef expo they are weighed with WDA supplied to prospective  buyers.  Every time I go to a show, as a participant or an observer, the bulls are weighed with the information supplied to the judge.  I have listened many times to judges as they say, "the second place heifer is as good or better than the first place heifer, there's just not as much of her."  Our county fair was among the first to weigh in calves and provide ADG figures to the judge.  You cannot ignore performance.  As I have stated before, every cattle producer has to determine the proper amount of performance that his or her environment can sustain.  For some it might be total grassfed beef with little or no input, for others it might be trying to obtain those 1,000 pound weaning weights, and every thing in between.  I have recommended for years that genetics should be purchased from someone who produces cattle the way you do.  That increases your odds of getting what you expect.  I have used a few Canadian bulls lately, assuming that since they survived 500 miles north of me, they should survive here.  Since the past few weeks have been among the most brutal we've ever had, it's a good thing they're used to it.   

Offline CAB

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Re: New Herdsire
« Reply #104 on: February 23, 2021, 09:32:11 AM »
I am 63 years old and have had cows since I was 9. the thing is I haven't figured anything out yet. It seems like to me that the epds are geared mostly for the packers and the feeders. I sell feeder calves. The most important numbers for me are $W and $EN within the Angus sire Summaries.
An interesting question though is Kit Pharo's. If you have 50,000lb pot loads of calves and the one has 600lb calves in it and the other is loaded with 450lb calves, which pot load would you rather receive the money for. Most years the 450lb pot load of calves will bring somewhere in the neighborhood of $15k to $20K more than the 600lb calves. Something to think about. ::)

 

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