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Author Topic: One of our junior herd sires  (Read 34882 times)

Offline justintime

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Re: One of our junior herd sires
« Reply #120 on: June 04, 2014, 08:30:22 AM »
IMO, Free Spirit represents what you can produce when you blend genetics to try to design a better beef animal. Many people ( including several who are on SP regularly) told me I was simply crazy to flush his dam to his sire. I did it anyways because I felt they complimented each other very well. I could not have been more pleased when I found Free Spirit nursing his recip mom only minutes after being born. His thickness, muscling and length was very evident right from birth. He also inherited the moderate frame of his dam, which was what I was hoping for.

It is just my opinion, but I wish our industry could return to using bulls with structural soundness like this to produce animals for both show and future production. No he doesn't have yak hair, but he has very good hair and he was quick to shed it when spring arrived. I really think this is an important trait we seem to have completely forgot about. I see many people who shear their entire cow herds each spring and to me, this is close to absurdity. We should be trying to breed cattle that work for us rather than us working for them. This seems to have got lost over the years as so many people chase their dreams in the show ring. To me, the ability to shed hair in early spring is very closely tied with fertility and reproductive traits. This seems to have been long forgotten by many, and these are the same people who complain when their kids  hairy, show heifer is hard to get in calf.  I think many people need to a refresher course on what femininity and reproductive traits actually look like.

I am not trying to make waves here, but just stating some of the things I see happening. I have no problem with people breeding whatever type of cattle they want, but it seems to me we all could take one step back to the reality of sounder, more functional, trouble free animals and everyone could still have fun and benefit. Just some random thoughts on a rainy June morning!
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 03:25:43 PM by justintime »
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Offline Barry Farms

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Re: One of our junior herd sires
« Reply #121 on: June 04, 2014, 05:38:42 PM »
Study after study  after study sites that bigger bwt's cause dystocia in beef production. The bigger bwt calves have a higher incidence of having a front leg back. I don't think this is argueable. Even with antedotal evidnce from a 750 head cow herd in Canada. We have a big birth weight problem in the Shorthorn breed. The latest herd bull issue states this. I don't see how we can ignore the problem.
There are also studies stating that using low BW bull after low BW bull after low BW bull will decrease the size of the heifers or cow pelvis. Meaning that they will have a hard time having calves and you would just keep having to use  smaller BW bulls. I would rather have cows that can have 100lb calves with no assistance then cows that cant have 60lb calves. My choice, I really don't care what you want, just quit telling me that I am ruining the US cattle industry or the ASA by doing so.

The lower BW is often a side-effect of just smaller cattle although not always i.e. clubbies. So the reason low BW bull's daughters would have smaller pelvises is because they have smaller bodies shorter frame etc. not that lower BW would make their pelvises smaller. Unless there was cattle that had small bodies and real long legs, still smaller (lighter) just not shorter.
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Offline Okotoks

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Re: One of our junior herd sires
« Reply #122 on: June 05, 2014, 01:23:10 AM »
Study after study  after study sites that bigger bwt's cause dystocia in beef production. The bigger bwt calves have a higher incidence of having a front leg back. I don't think this is argueable. Even with antedotal evidnce from a 750 head cow herd in Canada. We have a big birth weight problem in the Shorthorn breed. The latest herd bull issue states this. I don't see how we can ignore the problem.
There are also studies stating that using low BW bull after low BW bull after low BW bull will decrease the size of the heifers or cow pelvis. Meaning that they will have a hard time having calves and you would just keep having to use  smaller BW bulls. I would rather have cows that can have 100lb calves with no assistance then cows that cant have 60lb calves. My choice, I really don't care what you want, just quit telling me that I am ruining the US cattle industry or the ASA by doing so.

The lower BW is often a side-effect of just smaller cattle although not always i.e. clubbies. So the reason low BW bull's daughters would have smaller pelvises is because they have smaller bodies shorter frame etc. not that lower BW would make their pelvises smaller. Unless there was cattle that had small bodies and real long legs, still smaller (lighter) just not shorter.
If you end up with smaller cows/smaller pelvis you really limit your choices on bulls especially for terminal crosses.
JIT  Free Spirit looks awesome. I reposted that pic in case people missed it on the prior page.

Offline GM

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Re: One of our junior herd sires
« Reply #123 on: June 05, 2014, 04:15:14 AM »
He looks bad ass!  How tall is he?  I remember when that pic came out of JIT standing next to Major Leroy and was surprised at how moderate yet massive he was (the bull, not JIT lol)

Offline justintime

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Re: One of our junior herd sires
« Reply #124 on: June 05, 2014, 07:52:15 AM »
He looks bad ass!  How tall is he?  I remember when that pic came out of JIT standing next to Major Leroy and was surprised at how moderate yet massive he was (the bull, not JIT lol)

I have not measured Free Spirit since he was a yearling and he barely made a 6 frame then. He is really quite moderate framed in my opinion. He is much like Leroy was in that he surprises me everytime I weigh him. I remember taking Leroy to display at the Sun Country Bull Sale and we decided to weigh him. He had been wintered on nothing but hay and he weighed 2820 lbs. I said that there was something wrong with the scale, so we walked him off and balanced the scale again. We put Leroy back on the scale and he weighed the same... 2820. In February this year, I put Free Spirit on our scale and he weighed 2508 lbs. He had just turned 3 years old. Our scale has a cage on it and it is supposed to weigh animals to 3000 lbs. I could hardly fit him onto the scale and for a while I wondered if I may have to cut the side out of it to get him out. He was so thick that he almost got stuck in the scale. Length x width x depth = pounds.
I am very pleased with the birth weights of his calves so far. All have been under 100 lbs so far, with some of them being in the mid 80s. I will know much more next year when we get a bunch more.
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Offline beebe

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Re: One of our junior herd sires
« Reply #125 on: June 05, 2014, 10:55:21 PM »
That is an impressive bull.  I do like how he is built.  Having said that, as a commercial cattle man that sells cattle for meat and not breeding stock I find that bull still too big.  I like frame score 4 to 5 but closer to 4.  My max birth weight is 85 lbs.  I have not heard any one talk about tenderness scores either ultra sound or DNA.  The most important thing that determines whether I enjoy a steak is tenderness.  I realize that I am probably a minority here but I am all about the quality of the gain far more than the rate of gain.  The cost of gain starting with how much it costs to run the momma cow for a year is very important.  I need a tough little cow that can graze though a foot of snow to get to some part of a corn stalk that will keep her fat at sub zero temps.  Then that cows calf needs to get fat enough on grass to be ready to eat at about 20 months.  Am I seeing it wrong that that bull while being built like I like them, would have daughters too big to do what I am asking?

Offline justintime

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Re: One of our junior herd sires
« Reply #126 on: June 05, 2014, 11:51:42 PM »
That is an impressive bull.  I do like how he is built.  Having said that, as a commercial cattle man that sells cattle for meat and not breeding stock I find that bull still too big.  I like frame score 4 to 5 but closer to 4.  My max birth weight is 85 lbs.  I have not heard any one talk about tenderness scores either ultra sound or DNA.  The most important thing that determines whether I enjoy a steak is tenderness.  I realize that I am probably a minority here but I am all about the quality of the gain far more than the rate of gain.  The cost of gain starting with how much it costs to run the momma cow for a year is very important.  I need a tough little cow that can graze though a foot of snow to get to some part of a corn stalk that will keep her fat at sub zero temps.  Then that cows calf needs to get fat enough on grass to be ready to eat at about 20 months.  Am I seeing it wrong that that bull while being built like I like them, would have daughters too big to do what I am asking?

Time will tell in regards to the size of his daughters. His dam is a very moderate framed cow and he is IMO, a moderate framed bull as well. Every time I look at him, I question how he could weigh as much as he does.  He is not a bull for everyone, but he does combine a lot of excellent traits. A commercial producer from Manitoba, saw him walk down the aisle at Agribition last fall and he followed the bull back to the stall. He came to our sale and he bought a bull. He told me that until he saw Free Spirit, he had never once considered ever using a Shorthorn bull. Free Spirit is about as easy fleshing a bull as I have ever owned. He just seems to stay in excellent condition. He gets that mostly from his dam as she is the same way.
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

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Offline justintime

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Re: One of our junior herd sires
« Reply #127 on: June 06, 2014, 08:21:53 AM »
He looks bad ass!  How tall is he?  I remember when that pic came out of JIT standing next to Major Leroy and was surprised at how moderate yet massive he was (the bull, not JIT lol)


No ... you were right the first time. I am rather " massive" as well!
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

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Offline Barry Farms

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Re: One of our junior herd sires
« Reply #128 on: June 06, 2014, 09:37:32 AM »
Looks like pelvic area of cattle.............it would best to cull the smaller outliers.........why don't they pelvic measure show heifers and show bulls and list the results. I have only measured one bullin life......at 365 days. Why doesn't the industry concentrate on big pelvics more. I will agree that the 100# bwt Shorthorn cattle generally have bigger pelvis's than most breeds. I think there is a "threshold" in commercial herds where there is no problems and bwt's and pelvic area is balanced out. I could see pursuing adequate pelvic area........but I would question chasinging big pelvic area's. jmo Why don't you pelvic measure bulls and list's mearuresments in sales. Not sure I've ever seen it.

Where we bought our 2 Gelbvieh Bulls they did this. (Judd Ranch) Cowboy Cut sons were all really high, like 150-170+ where as the rest were all about 130.
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Offline Kevin A

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Re: One of our junior herd sires
« Reply #129 on: June 06, 2014, 11:55:50 AM »
Is semen available in the states from him? If so, where?  Great looking bull btw!

Offline justintime

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Re: One of our junior herd sires
« Reply #130 on: June 06, 2014, 12:40:29 PM »
Is semen available in the states from him? If so, where?  Great looking bull btw!

I have semen from Free Spirit stored at Hawkeye Breeders, Adel, IA. It is priced at $35/straw with no additional charges for certificates ( as required). Right now I am offering the US semen interest in him, but I will sell semen until someone buys the US semen rights.
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and bad breath!
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity
If love is blind... why is lingerie so popular?
The only thing worse than an idiot ... is an educated idiot!

 

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