Steer Planet - Show Steers and Club Calves Forum

Here are the three bulls seeing service on the cow herd at Diamond Shorthorns this year.
Diamond Belvedere 29B sired by The Grove Kookaburra W735 out of Diamond Dottie 55G.
Saskvalley Curfew 41C sired by Saskvalley Alamo 8A out of Saskvalley Blossom 295A
Diamond Dynamite 6D sired by Diamond Lord Belmore 56B and out of Diamond Britney Maid 2B. (He will head back to Woodruff Ranches in July)

What would their frame scores be?

Thank you.   I like them even better now!   It is easy to breed cattle smaller, but more difficult to keep them large.   Small framed cattle,  if they have the kind of gain we need,  start to look like pigs.   Rick Pisaturo,  of Mandalong fame,  expressed the opinion that bulls need to be a frame score one or two higher than the cows he is mated with to maintain frame and size in the herd.   

Nice bulls Dan - especially like the looks of the Belvedere bull - and getting a bit off topic in response to Idalee and Beebe; several years ago we weighed, did hip heights and body condition scored all the 3 year and older cows (about 50) to get a baseline of where we were. We found that our cows (Red Angus) were on average 1490 lbs with a frame score of 5.6 and BCS of CDN 3 or US 5.4 (these are exact averages). This data was taken in early November at preg checking when we still calved in February, weaned in early September and had cows going back to grass so they had a bit more rig on them.

A few things we found - when adjusted for BCS cows of a certain HH were very close in bodyweight. A frame score 5 cow in our herd was still about 1450 lbs if they were built with the volume and mass I liked.

Now to Idalees point - we made the decision on this info that our cattle were a bit too big and heavy so I made a point of only using sub 5 frame bulls for a few years. This combined with a change to less intensive management and calving season change led to very small first calving cows and young cows to the point that their calves were smaller and stubbier. This in some cases meant that I got less per pound for these calves and in others that I needed to feed more calves for the winter to get them to more profitable weights or body type. We have since gone to using larger bulls again but trying to stay in the 5.5-6 frame range as mature animals, and combined with management our cows are still moderate for our environment. I think Mr Pisaturos observations are correct in my experience.

Nice bulls Dan - especially like the looks of the Belvedere bull - and getting a bit off topic in response to Idalee and Beebe; several years ago we weighed, did hip heights and body condition scored all the 3 year and older cows (about 50) to get a baseline of where we were. We found that our cows (Red Angus) were on average 1490 lbs with a frame score of 5.6 and BCS of CDN 3 or US 5.4 (these are exact averages). This data was taken in early November at preg checking when we still calved in February, weaned in early September and had cows going back to grass so they had a bit more rig on them.

A few things we found - when adjusted for BCS cows of a certain HH were very close in bodyweight. A frame score 5 cow in our herd was still about 1450 lbs if they were built with the volume and mass I liked.

Now to Idalees point - we made the decision on this info that our cattle were a bit too big and heavy so I made a point of only using sub 5 frame bulls for a few years. This combined with a change to less intensive management and calving season change led to very small first calving cows and young cows to the point that their calves were smaller and stubbier. This in some cases meant that I got less per pound for these calves and in others that I needed to feed more calves for the winter to get them to more profitable weights or body type. We have since gone to using larger bulls again but trying to stay in the 5.5-6 frame range as mature animals, and combined with management our cows are still moderate for our environment. I think Mr Pisaturos observations are correct in my experience.

I agree with his observations as well. You make a good point about the size of calves, in our part of the world most cattle will be finished in the feedlot and how they perform there really drives the demand. It is a balancing act between getting the most pounds from the cow calf operation with minimum inputs and then getting good gains in the feedlot with good feed conversion.
Here is another Belvedere heifer calf born March 23 out of a three old daughter of Herbourne B Manitoba Gus 13Z.

Long live Lowlines and Miniature Herefords?  Anyone who lived through 800 pound cows and belt buckle bulls weaning 300 pound calves sure doesn't want to go back there.  You want to bring back Prince Eric of Sunbeam and Louada Aristocrat have at it.  Maybe 1,700 pound cows aren't the answer, but neither are 800 pounders.  Surely there's a happy medium.  I guess I prefer the return/investment approach.  Around here, the smaller calves sell for more per bound because the feeders think they can put on the pounds cheaper than they can buy it.  1.70/lb for a 450 pounder versus 1.70/pound for an 800 pounder?  I think you can put on those 350 pounds for less than 1.70/pound.

I have no quarrel with a 1,250 pound cow that weans a calf weighing 600 pounds.  To me, that's the happy medium I was describing.  We should all be so lucky!  When the word "smaller" was used, those miserable cows of the 60's came to mind.  Sorry.

Beebe, I agree that smaller cows are more profitable per acre. The smaller the cow the better in those terms, and sheep are even more profitable per acre.

However different environments, body composition, time of weighing, BCS, feed the cattle are on all affect body weight. A 4 frame cow here was not 1250 lbs when we weighed, but they had 3 months to fatten up post weaning prior to the winter. If I weighed them at weaning they would have been much lighter, but once adjusted for BCS they would have basically been the same weight I reported because those were adjusted for BCS - so a 4 frame mature cow here would be in the 1350-1400 lb range with reasonable body condition. Unless your cows are smaller they would likely be the same - unless they are finer made and lacking capacity which I doubt by the pictures I have seen of your cattle.

And also those smaller cows are only more profitable if the calves are selling like the bigger calves. As I said some of the calves from those smaller bulls were coming out a bit stubby and were docked at the sale barn - so the advantage is lost. Also our environment is tougher on those light calves if having to feed through the winter so I prefer to have them at a weight where I can just market them in the fall. Lastly in Western Canada light calves have been selling at a substantial discount to heavier calves in the last two years - especially in the last year due to drought and feed shortages.

So general rules are great and are a good guideline, but a person also has adjust to what is actually happening.