Red Angus marbling

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librarian

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I was at a beef meeting last night and a Pfizer/Zoetis rep was trying to sell us different products and services.  Among the services was the 50K genetic testing for many and various traits.  As I understood it, different tests are available for Black Angus and Red Angus, and the markers are different.
I asked if there was that much quantitative difference between Black Angus and Red (the fellow travelers).  He said yes.
I asked what the largest difference was.
He said marbling.  The Red marble better.
Marbling better than Black Angus, after all the selection the breed has done for that, is pretty impressive to me.

Having said that, I do think marbling is over rated.  I have eaten a lot of very tender, savory and fine flavored beef that had almost no visible marbling.  What the un-marbled beef did have was a very fine grain.
 

Davis Shorthorns

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I remember seeing that when I was in College.  It went Red Angus, Black Angus, then Shorthorn all being very close to each other then a larger gap to the Herfs, simmis, etc...  Kinda interesting that only one of those breeds has selected heavily for carcass and the other two haven't but still are right up there.  <cowboy>
 

Davis Shorthorns

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Nothing is guaranteed but you can put the odd's in your favor by knowing what the generalities are.  Odds, statistics and percentages is what every scientific theory is based on.  We know nothing 100% so to make a informed decision you have to look at generalities. 
 

librarian

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The interesting part to me was that they used different markers. Why is that?
If Shorthorn animals (a statistically significant number of samples) were tested for marbling with the Black Angus markers and the Red Angus markers, I wonder what the difference would be in the results. 
Seems like they could figure out pretty easily if Red Angus are more closely related to Shorthorn than to Black Angus, however they do that. I guess it's not that easy, with Shorthorn being so cosmopolitan.  Maybe they could compare the Red Angus with Native Shorthorn or Lincoln Reds.
 

librarian

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From knabe, once upon a time, about "smokey marbling".
http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/smokey-marbling/

it could be that there is another set of genes responsible for a different kind of fat deposition that lends to a better eating experience that we have been "selecting" against because the phenotype of flecked marbling is so EASY to grade, and therefore easy to eliminate alternative forms of marbling that may be actually be better.


How did the research go.  What about the good feeding during breeding?  I think Galloway's have this smokey marbling.

 

nate53

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List a couple red angus herds or some sires that will match up or beat the best in the black angus breed (at marbling).  I don't think there is any but I maybe wrong?
 

Davis Shorthorns

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The information I saw was from the Meat Animal Research Center in Nebraska.  They listed the average imf numbers on actual tested carcases. 
 

librarian

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Okay, I am back at work and trying to figure this on on my break.  I am working in a grocery store, so it's not as though I am a scientist.  Knabe, could you please shed some light on Figure S2 for me?
I am looking at the genetic distance diagram where it shows Shorthorn, Angus and Red Angus.  Am I on track by thinking the picture means that Angus and Red Angus diverged, or drifted genetically away from something that included Shorthorns. And that Red Angus diverged later, so that the genetic distance between Red Angus and Angus is short and the genetic distance between Shorthorn and Angus is much greater.
The main point being that they seem to split off from the same source?

This Reynold's genetic distance is about drift.  How does drift apply to deliberate manipulation of the gene pool by selective breeding?
"Reynolds, Weir, and Cockerham's genetic distance
In 1983, this measure was published by John Reynolds, B.S. Weir and C. Clark Cockerham. This measure assumes that genetic differences arise due to genetic drift only. It estimates the coancestry coefficient \Theta which provides a measure of the genetic distance." -Wiki

I we could get a grip on this, maybe we could stop wrangling and mythologizing.

 

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knabe

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i guess at some level, these graphs show just how easy it would be to create a breed from just a few animals and that there is enough diversity in some breeds to have variability to make classifications and if held long enough that they would become breeds with whatever pressure there was.  i guess at some level, that's what breeders do and to me, the concept of breed is meaningless. they are just lineages that have some constraint that narrows the breeding population. guarantee of pedigree is more important. at some point soon, packers will demand it or dock you considerably, which they sort of do now with the black hair coat/polled genes, but will do more of soon.

all cattle are from the same source, auroch's, unless there's something else, so to me, everything is essentially a land race, with some mixing as travel became easier.  at least to me, remember, the spotted or piebald pattern was supposedly used to identify the first domesticated livestock and supposedly sort of a brand. then, further stuff happened as the ocean raised, people killing each other, not mixing, then mixing, various reasons populations were in isolation, then mixed.  think of the breed registry purity arguments back then.  sorry, after reading about this, i am referring to S3.  to me, S2 is just the big bang and doesn't really mean what came from what.  i could be wrong. but yeah it looks like shorthorn, angus and red angus were from a line and split, obviously one split "earlier" than the other. i guess it would be interesting to draw a graph to see how many animals it took from two breeds the snps in common, regardless of the occurrence, which is sort of what these graphs do, but it would be nice to see just what those numbers are and really see the variability within and between "breeds". for some reason, we tend to weigh heavily a low number of traits to describe breeds or each other and stereotype each other.  it can be rather annoying. i guess i would rather focus on major fault (to me genes) such as carrot teats, sloped hips, sickle hock, cow hock, seedy toe, hair type and number and length, fly resistance and make new "breeds" and not worry so much about useless hid color and polled genes.  shaver in canada, the santa gertrudis and other REAL breeders to me are the one's who are truly creative and breeders, instead of preservers, who are incredibly useful as well. other "breeders" are useful as well that like to impose pressure on a couple of traits, and then close breed.  these guys find the defects, a service to everyone.

http://www.buckmanager.com/2007/07/17/piebald-deer-what-are-they/

oversimplified, but the dendogram just shows relatedness using the markers they used and differences are due to mutations and drift. the more markers in common, the more related they are. has nothing to do with nothing else. i used these a lot in plant breeding and marker searches in row crops early in life.

to me, drifting away isn't really descriptive of the process, they just differentiated differently for whatever reason, including environment latitude, mutation from viruses, bacteria load, flies, migration impulse, from gamma rays, who knows.

my former boss had an office near a guy in this reference. a lot of recent interesting debate arose from this work with respect to humans, which one could imagine could get controversial. drift is obviously dangerous unless one has something in mind and even then, not having enough numbers can still cause problems. cattle breeders in the 1800's seemed to do a better job than those in the 1900's, maybe just because they essentially created most of the breeds and it was easier rather than following and maintaining the mythology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_distance
 

librarian

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thank you. That is neat about the piebald coloring.  I heard some hunters talking about deer colored like that.
Yes, i have read a lot of the old magazines and almanacs or the 19th century.  They had raging controversies all the time, not unlike those on this site.  Most of the pure breed obsession seemed to be a misplaced yearning for aristocracy.
Anyway, at least they had local breeds on each side of the mountain.
 

BTDT

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nate53 said:
List a couple red angus herds or some sires that will match up or beat the best in the black angus breed (at marbling).  I don't think there is any but I maybe wrong?

Spoken and believed just as a black angus follower.  It is widely proven (you can google as well as I can) that red angus marble better than the blacks. Current research shows that the gap is widening; maybe because of the direction each breed has taken?. 
If you re-read your statement, you even almost admit it  And I quote, "that will match up or beat the BEST in the black angus breed"...  I am sure their are outliers in the black angus breed that will beat the red angus or any other breed, but as a total breed no. 
In fact, due to the fact that the red angus breed is a THR (total herd reporting) breed, every single animal is recorded and counts in the tabulation of EPD's. The black angus breed only reports their "best" animals, so the breeds true reflection is not obtained. I realize this is a hard thing for the black angus breed to defend or even "justify" and I am not really saying that one is better than the other (ok, I probably am!) but that is the fact about each breed. 

Maybe if the blacks would focus on their breed improvement and not so much the fad of the year, they might catch back up. And maybe the house cleaning the breed did a few months ago is a good start. Time will tell.

 
 

librarian

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I stared at those pictures some more and it seems that S3 presents the same information as S2. The ganglion looking representation of S2 was confounding to me.  Still, both pictures clearly show Red Angus very close to Black Angus and on a divergent branch from Shorthorn and Lincoln Red, so I guess the conspiracy theory about Red Angus being Shorthorns by another name is not supportable.  I guess one could still find a way to argue about it.
The position of the Welsh Black and the Herefords is interesting.
Has anyone written a paper looking at the British Cattle from an Island Biogeography point of view?  More like from the Iron Age?  There was, at one time, some "reddish" hair found in peat bogs supposedly of Celtic Shorthorn, if such a beast is even recognized anymore.

If the breed average for marbling is higher in Red than Black Angus, then wouldn't the average Red Angus marble better?
The best we can really do is to raise the average within our own herds, and I would not attempt this by using an outlier bull for any trait.  I would look for a bull that was merely above average for many generations back.
http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/news/columns/beeftalk/beeftalk-in-search-of-good-sires

But I would still use a Red Galloway instead of a Red Angus if I was fixated on red camouflage and wanted higher marbling.
And speaking of raging controversies, the most rancorous and extended one I ever came across was the bitter acrimony over Shorthorn cattle descended from the "tainted" Alloy family of cattle bred by Charles Collins way back when.
His neighbor had a red Galloway cow and the neighbor borrowed Collings Shorthorn bull, Bolingbroke, to breed the cow.
Collins kept the resulting bull calf and bred it to a very good old cow he had (Phoenix, the dam of Favorite)  He got a bull calf, named Grandson of Bolingbroke, who was 25% Galloway.He begat, Lady, 12.5% Galloway, and her get were known as the Alloy family.  When Collings had his herd dispersal sale, the Alloy family were the high sellers, and the purists were incensed.  They went on and on about that "tainted" blood forever, on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean.

In the history of Shorthorn Cattle, by Lewis Farley Allen, http://books.google.com/books?id=zOrbAAAAMAAJ&dq=alloy%20shorthorn%20family&pg=PA61#v=onepage&q=alloy%20shorthorn%20family&f=false
he devoted 8 pages to debunking this unfortunate epsisode, and feels compelled to say:
The Alloys were deficient in milk, which always kept them in good condition, and being round and plump in form, with fine hair, those qualities, in spite of their slight fraction of Galloway blood, while their Short-horn blood being of the very best, sold them so well.
and then
We have given more space to this pretended "improvement" than it deserves, and but for the belief, so generally prevalent, of its truth, should hardly have mentioned it. Yet, honest history should be vindicated. It is but candid, however, to say, that in the remote earlier breeding of the Short-horns, stealthy crosses with other breeds are known to have been made; but they are now so distant in time, and as no "improvement" upon the original Short-horn blood has been claimed for any such possible crosses, they need not be made a subject of remark
Uber-asterisk, I guess.
 

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