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Offline TJ

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I sold a Lowline bull to someone who had red calf.  Well, he had both the sire  & the calf DNA tested to see if it carried the red gene or the wild gene.  Bovigen did the testing.  Anyway, the sire  came back homozygous black ( ED ED)!!  And even stranger, the red calf came back  E+ ED !! I didn't think it was possible, but the calf is red!   Below is a picture of the cow & the heifer calf with the black gene.  Any comments about this development???
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 11:47:36 AM by TJ »
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Romans 10:9-10... "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Offline knabe

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Re: RED CALF has a black gene!! Didn't think it was possible, but...
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2008, 12:13:06 PM »
EDED = Homozygous Black
EDe = Black Hided Animal, Red Carrier
ee = Red Hided Animal, Double Red Carrier
E+ED = Most Likely Black Hided Animal, Wild Type Carrier
E+e = Most Likely a Red Hided Animal, Wild Type Carrier
E+E+ = Wild Type Carrier, Any Color Possible

It appears that the E+ color scheme is not well understood.  if they were watching, they may have snagged the dna for sequencing.  if not, you could sell it to them probably?
"The generation that told us to question authority, has now become the Authority we cannot question!"

Offline TJ

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Re: RED CALF has a black gene!! Didn't think it was possible, but...
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2008, 12:41:53 PM »
EDED = Homozygous Black
EDe = Black Hided Animal, Red Carrier
ee = Red Hided Animal, Double Red Carrier
E+ED = Most Likely Black Hided Animal, Wild Type Carrier
E+e = Most Likely a Red Hided Animal, Wild Type Carrier
E+E+ = Wild Type Carrier, Any Color Possible

It appears that the E+ color scheme is not well understood.  if they were watching, they may have snagged the dna for sequencing.  if not, you could sell it to them probably?

I knew that the wild gene (E+) could do some crazy things, but I was always told that a homo black parent, would always produce 100% black calves.  Apparently that is NOT the case. 

Never thought about selling the dna, but I bet they would just use the sample that they have. 

Anyway, I thought this would be an interesting topic.
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Romans 10:9-10... "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Offline knabe

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Re: RED CALF has a black gene!! Didn't think it was possible, but...
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2008, 12:53:10 PM »
i'm betting they have no idea what they have as the samples are pretty much processed automatically.  i would try and see if you could sell some, including the dam, just for fun, as if this is a different mutant, or rare crossover event, that would be interesting.  they would of course want to have a competitive advantage over other companies, including agrogenomics which administers the PHA/TH and other gene screenings as well.  perhaps you could get your name on a paper if you gave the sample to dr. beever.  perhaps barrel racer could interrupt her DNA extractions for a while with a neat little diversion.
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Offline TJ

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Re: RED CALF has a black gene!! Didn't think it was possible, but...
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2008, 01:23:01 PM »
i'm betting they have no idea what they have as the samples are pretty much processed automatically.  i would try and see if you could sell some, including the dam, just for fun, as if this is a different mutant, or rare crossover event, that would be interesting.  they would of course want to have a competitive advantage over other companies, including agrogenomics which administers the PHA/TH and other gene screenings as well.  perhaps you could get your name on a paper if you gave the sample to dr. beever.  perhaps barrel racer could interrupt her DNA extractions for a while with a neat little diversion.

All great ideas & I bet you are correct... they probably didn't know that the calf was red when they tested the sample.  I don't own the cow or the calf, but I know the owner pretty well & I may run it by him.   
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Romans 10:9-10... "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Offline fluffer

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Re: RED CALF has a black gene!! Didn't think it was possible, but...
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2008, 02:28:12 PM »
Is that test 100% accurate?  ???

That is strange?  One for the books!

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Offline garybob

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Re: RED CALF has a black gene!! Didn't think it was possible, but...
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2008, 02:48:20 PM »
Love her udder & ample slope from hooks to pins. :)

GB

Offline knabe

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Re: RED CALF has a black gene!! Didn't think it was possible, but...
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2008, 02:51:39 PM »
Is that test 100% accurate?  ???

That is strange?  One for the books!

Fluffer

notice the wording of

E+ED = Most Likely Black Hided Animal, Wild Type Carrier

the test would be accurate for the DNA present, but not necessarily the phenotype.  it's results like this that people were worried about in the beginning with PHA, as evidently a sample was mislabled early on and i think it was Ali who got mischaracterized as a carrier, but he's not.  once again, an opportunity to not only point out that at some point, one could get a calf that was a carrier by a mutation that wasn't screened for with the current test.  the odds on that occuring are extremely remote, but possible.  it's also clear, that the allele's from carriers are different than the always clean lines and there may be value there unassociated with a phenotype that may be from just a single copy.
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Offline Barrel Racer

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Re: RED CALF has a black gene!! Didn't think it was possible, but...
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2008, 06:15:27 PM »
It doesn't take much to distract me from the mass DNA isolations  (lol)
Anyway I did some checking and it's possible for the calf to be born red and change to black.  This happens with some holsteins, they are called "changelings"
I couldn't find any papers on the subject but this came from Genmark:

Heterozygous Black / Wildtype - this animal carries one copy of the dominant black allele and one copy of the wildtype allele. In beef breeds, this animal will most often be black in color but will pass along the wildtype allele to its offspring 50% of the time. The wildtype allele is associated with the Red-Black condition in Holstein cattle but has been poorly characterized in beef cattle. It has been reported that animals carrying the wildtype allele occasionally appear red when born and gradually turn black as they age. Additionally, some animals carrying the wildtype allele have been reported to have a reddish color at the base of the hair and black along the remainder of the hair shaft.

Now why this happens... no idea.... Honestly coat color is one of the hardest things to keep straight, so many genes so many modifiers..it's enough to make you go crazy.  Right now my coat color studies are limited to calculating the probabilites of colt number 2 being a buckskin  ;D

Offline dori36

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Re: RED CALF has a black gene!! Didn't think it was possible, but...
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2008, 06:23:47 PM »
I sold a Lowline bull to someone who had red calf.  Well, he had both the sire  & the calf DNA tested to see if it carried the red gene or the wild gene.  Bovigen did the testing.  Anyway, the sire  came back homozygous black ( ED ED)!!  And even stranger, the red calf came back  E+ ED !! I didn't think it was possible, but the calf is red!   Below is a picture of the cow & the heifer calf with the black gene.  Any comments about this development???

TJ, I think the first thing I'd do is ask Bovigen to run the test again with new samples from the calf.  It's possible they could have run the wrong sample.  As good as they are, mistakes do happen.  I might also do parentage verification on  her to be sure of the sire.  It won't change the genetic makeup of the calf, but it might shed some light on her color if her new sample comes back ee.
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Offline TJ

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Re: RED CALF has a black gene!! Didn't think it was possible, but...
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2008, 07:00:34 PM »
I sold a Lowline bull to someone who had red calf.  Well, he had both the sire  & the calf DNA tested to see if it carried the red gene or the wild gene.  Bovigen did the testing.  Anyway, the sire  came back homozygous black ( ED ED)!!  And even stranger, the red calf came back  E+ ED !! I didn't think it was possible, but the calf is red!   Below is a picture of the cow & the heifer calf with the black gene.  Any comments about this development???

TJ, I think the first thing I'd do is ask Bovigen to run the test again with new samples from the calf.  It's possible they could have run the wrong sample.  As good as they are, mistakes do happen.  I might also do parentage verification on  her to be sure of the sire.  It won't change the genetic makeup of the calf, but it might shed some light on her color if her new sample comes back ee.

Dori, I originally thought the same thing, but they ran a parent verification test too... it verified that General Sherman is indeed the sire of this calf & General Sherman tested ED ED (homozygous black).  I was hoping that he would be e ED or even E+ ED, but he was ED ED.     

BTW, several years ago I had someone in Louisiana send me a picture of a red 1/2 blood heifer calf sired by Midshipman.  I just knew that Midshipman was a red carrier.  However, we had a straw of Midshipman semen tested & he came back ED ED.  I just figured that a "clean up" bull jumped into the pasture, but now I am beginning to wonder if it really wasn't a 1/2 Lowline heifer & it was E+ ED, just like this heifer. 

http://www.kylowline.com

Romans 10:9-10... "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Offline TJ

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Re: RED CALF has a black gene!! Didn't think it was possible, but...
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2008, 07:05:16 PM »
It doesn't take much to distract me from the mass DNA isolations  (lol)
Anyway I did some checking and it's possible for the calf to be born red and change to black.  This happens with some holsteins, they are called "changelings"
I couldn't find any papers on the subject but this came from Genmark:

Heterozygous Black / Wildtype - this animal carries one copy of the dominant black allele and one copy of the wildtype allele. In beef breeds, this animal will most often be black in color but will pass along the wildtype allele to its offspring 50% of the time. The wildtype allele is associated with the Red-Black condition in Holstein cattle but has been poorly characterized in beef cattle. It has been reported that animals carrying the wildtype allele occasionally appear red when born and gradually turn black as they age. Additionally, some animals carrying the wildtype allele have been reported to have a reddish color at the base of the hair and black along the remainder of the hair shaft.

Now why this happens... no idea.... Honestly coat color is one of the hardest things to keep straight, so many genes so many modifiers..it's enough to make you go crazy.  Right now my coat color studies are limited to calculating the probabilites of colt number 2 being a buckskin  ;D

I've seen brownish calves turn jet black, but I've never seen a red calf turn black.  It will be interesting to see if this one does change color over time. 
http://www.kylowline.com

Romans 10:9-10... "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Offline red

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Re: RED CALF has a black gene!! Didn't think it was possible, but...
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2008, 06:53:41 AM »
We had a real reddish calf go black once. I'll see if I can't find her picture. It seems if they have a black nose they tend to darken up more. A white nose usually stays red.


Barrel Racer- how far off are you? Are you less worried this year or the same?  ;)
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« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 06:54:39 AM by red »
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Offline Barrel Racer

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Re: RED CALF has a black gene!! Didn't think it was possible, but...
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2008, 09:15:55 AM »

Barrel Racer- how far off are you? Are you less worried this year or the same?  ;)
Red

She's due about May 12 or so.  I hope that she doesn't go a month late like she did last year, I'll seriously be lacking some sleep.   Actually I'm much more nervous this time around.  She's foaling at my house this year, so I'm one nervous foal watcher  ;D  She's started to bag up already, I really feel for her because she looks so huge and miserable. 

Offline fluffer

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Re: RED CALF has a black gene!! Didn't think it was possible, but...
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2008, 11:16:36 AM »
My mares always like to wait to have their babies too.  Drove me NUTS!  I would watch and watch for a good month or better every 2 hours around the clock.  But those ol girls would always "wax" about 1/2 a day before they foaled.  It was like a waste of time to watch them.

Good luck with her, and let us knwo how it turns out!

Fluffer
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