Selling animals with a right to flush

FriedgesCharolais · May 14, 2014

Curious about animals being sold and the seller is retaining a flush on the animal. Does the seller get all of the embryos in the flush, or is it similar to a flush from a cow being sold where there is a cap and anything above that cap is split between the owner and the buyer?

Doc · May 14, 2014

Most of the time the seller gets the entire flush. I have seen it before where they say min. of 6 eggs and a max. of 8. Sometimes they will say split two flushes if sires are mutually agreed upon. That way somebody may not end up with a flush of 20 and the next one has 6 or vice versa.
I've also seen it more times than not that the seller never claims their right to the flush. Sometimes they are either using it as a marketing ploy to make you think the animal is good enough to flush or they end up with something else they would rather flush instead.

jbzdad · May 15, 2014

I sell the few I raise that way.. I want my best ones to go to a family that can show them and this gives me the opportunity to get some embryos back from those genetics... I agree that it is hard to get a family from a few states away to work around a flush or two but it can be done

I also think that we are all trying to raise a great one ... I notice bull sellers retaining 1/3 semen rights.. I think for the same reason.. wouldn't you love to have 1/3 semen rights to I-80

I know some guys won't buy heifers that have flush rights held back and that is their business... families may be able to get a heifer a little less expensive if they look to these kind of deals

MCC · May 15, 2014

I am not trying to make anyone mad but I will not touch an animal that is keeping flush rights or cloning rights. If you want to sell the animal SELL THE ANIMAL! I am not going to buy an animal that will make you money after I have I have paid GOOD money to try to advance MY program!

GoWyo · May 15, 2014

MCC said:
I am not trying to make anyone mad but I will not touch an animal that is keeping flush rights or cloning rights. If you want to sell the animal SELL THE ANIMAL! I am not going to buy an animal that will make you money after I have I have paid GOOD money to try to advance MY program!

Agree with this statement all the way. Makes the animal worth way less if there is the hassle of messing up my breeding schedule so the seller can flush and flush again if the first one doesn't work.

justintime · May 16, 2014

GoWyo said:
MCC said:

I am not trying to make anyone mad but I will not touch an animal that is keeping flush rights or cloning rights. If you want to sell the animal SELL THE ANIMAL! I am not going to buy an animal that will make you money after I have I have paid GOOD money to try to advance MY program!

Click to expand...

Agree with this statement all the way. Makes the animal worth way less if there is the hassle of messing up my breeding schedule so the seller can flush and flush again if the first one doesn't work.

I have seen this twice in the last year at two sales I attended. Two different sales and two different people totally walked away from bidding on females when they heard that the seller was going to retain the right to flush at sometime in the future at the buyers convenience. In both cases, the potential bidders were talking of giving me substantial bids on animals and would not give me a bid of any amount. I was quite surprised how these people reacted to the seller retaining this right to flush. I was talking with a sale manager who works a lot of Angus sales and he said he sees this more and more each year, and he said he now recommends that sellers think about this as it could actually reduce the price they receive for their female(s).

Chap · May 16, 2014

does anyone have any experience with somebody actually exercising their "right " to a future flush? Seems to me the wording of buyer's convenience is pretty tricky. I don't know that it would ever be convenient for me to take a cow out of production or my own flush schedule for someone else to do it. I think the better way to do this is to retain an embryo interest if you really want the genetics. much more structured and up front. sure it will decrease the value, but you better be willing to give up some up front $ if you want to retain the right
Chap

crystalcreek · May 16, 2014

I wouldn't hesitate to agree to a flush back if it was the only way to get my hands on some desireable genetics and it helped get the price in my price range. For smaller breeders wanting to get their hands on females that are otherwise out of reach, I think this is reasonable and can be beneficial to both parties.

Personally, I would want to enter into that kind of contract with someone I was familiar with and trusted. Furthermore, if I was able to convince someone to entrust me with their best genetics, I would be appreciative enough that a flush back would be a sort of thank you gift in return.

Technologies are improving to the point that flushes don't necessarily have to disrupt your breeding schedule. Donor can be bred on schedule and an aspiration pick up procedure is available, non-surgical, that can actually be performed on a pregnant female with no risk to the developing pregnancy. TransOva does this and the IVF embryos are now of the same thaw method as regular type embryos. You can even reverse sort the semen and select the sex of your choice in the eggs, or use two different sires if you have enough eggs to work with. $1300 for aspiration with reverse sort...yes, it's pricey, and not saying this is available to everyone due to where you are located, but it is an option to think about.

I just purchased a heifer with flush back terms. I negotiated with the seller and depending on the harvest, we may split the flush or split two successive flushes utilizing two different sires. I wouldn't rule out a good animal simply because the seller is asking for genetics back down the road. If the seller is a jerk you don't want to deal with, why buy from them to begin with?

RyanChandler · May 16, 2014

Chap said:
I don't know that it would ever be 'convenient' for me to take a cow out of production or my own flush schedule for someone else to do it.

Bingo!

I see the wordage "seller retains the rights to one flush..." as more of a platitude trying to accentuate the animals value. Like a previous poster said: how many sellers truly exercise this right?

jbzdad · May 17, 2014

<rock>I have

DLD · May 17, 2014

I can understand a breeder wanting to retain a flush on a "special" individual. After a few partnership females, I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather buy a whole heifer and let the seller keep the right to a flush or two, than to buy half interest in one. Not that I've ever had a partnership female deal go bad, it's just that in the end I've never really gained anything from one either.

I am a little put off when I pick up a sale catalog and see a hundred (sometimes hundreds) of females selling, and the seller claims the right to a flush in all of them. I know the odds of buying one that they choose to flush may be small, but it still plays into consideration for me. If I can buy an equal one with no strings attached for the same money, or even a little bit more, I will.

MCC · May 17, 2014

Bingo!

I see the wordage "seller retains the rights to one flush..." as more of a platitude trying to accentuate the animals value. Like a previous poster said: how many sellers truly exercise this right?

[/quote]

I guarantee if you have success with that female the seller will be knocking down your door to get their two flushes Two flushes that you could be making money off of.

Who hauls the cow to get her flushed? Does the seller come get her or does he pay you to take her there. What happens if he wants to flush her at a different place that is farther away?

To many headaches for me to deal with.

Like they say you can't have your cake and eat it too. ( don't know why but that's what mom says )

RyanChandler · May 17, 2014

"at buyers convenience and sellers expense"

Ill dictate what/when something is convenient for me. The disclaimer states who is responsible for all expenses.

jbzdad · May 18, 2014

This is what ours looks like.. should contain acknowledgement that we can register these calves .. to cut down necessity of this paper work later

Bill of Sale

Seller: Buyer:

Purchased Animal:
The aforementioned Seller(s) has agreed to sell the following animal to _________________________. This sale was made on _______________________. Buyer retains 100% ownership of said heifer.
Seller(s) reserve the right to obtain a DNA profile of said heifer through a reputable DNA service. Seller(s) to pay any and all costs associated with this service.
Seller(s) reserve the right to have the heifer flushed twice, at their expense, after her first calving and every third year. Seller(s) agree to pay any and all expenses incurred for said procedure. Seller(s) agree to use a reputable provider, with a record of safely and effectively flushing female cattle. Any eggs produced from flushes paid for solely by the seller(s) shall be the property of the seller(s).
Seller(s) shall be responsible for any and all expenses incurred for retrieval, storage, or implanting of eggs.
Seller(s) will work with Buyer(s) to ensure flushing does not interfere with showing of said heifer.
This contract is transferable and Seller(s) rights as outlined above transfer with the heifer should she be sold at any point in the future.
The terms above, do not exclude the Buyer(s), who owns full possession of the animal, from flushing whenever deemed necessary, as long as these actions do not interfere directly with the Seller’s rights outlines above. Buyer has the right to participate if they choose in the flushes the Seller performs.

_____________________________________ ____________________________________
_____________________________________ ____________________________________
Seller’s Signature(s) Buyer’s Signature(s)

Doc · May 18, 2014

jbzdad said:
This is what ours looks like.. should contain acknowledgement that we can register these calves .. to cut down necessity of this paper work later

Bill of Sale

Seller: Buyer:

Purchased Animal:
The aforementioned Seller(s) has agreed to sell the following animal to _________________________. This sale was made on _______________________. Buyer retains 100% ownership of said heifer.
Seller(s) reserve the right to obtain a DNA profile of said heifer through a reputable DNA service. Seller(s) to pay any and all costs associated with this service.
Seller(s) reserve the right to have the heifer flushed twice, at their expense, after her first calving and every third year. Seller(s) agree to pay any and all expenses incurred for said procedure. Seller(s) agree to use a reputable provider, with a record of safely and effectively flushing female cattle. Any eggs produced from flushes paid for solely by the seller(s) shall be the property of the seller(s).
Seller(s) shall be responsible for any and all expenses incurred for retrieval, storage, or implanting of eggs.
Seller(s) will work with Buyer(s) to ensure flushing does not interfere with showing of said heifer.
This contract is transferable and Seller(s) rights as outlined above transfer with the heifer should she be sold at any point in the future.
The terms above, do not exclude the Buyer(s), who owns full possession of the animal, from flushing whenever deemed necessary, as long as these actions do not interfere directly with the Seller’s rights outlines above. Buyer has the right to participate if they choose in the flushes the Seller performs.

_____________________________________ ____________________________________
_____________________________________ ____________________________________
Seller’s Signature(s) Buyer’s Signature(s)

Yea, that's a little more than what I consider retaining a flush. That is almost like retaining 1/4 embryo interest. Nothing personal, that is probably more than I would agree to unless she was an outstanding individual and I really wanted her. If I sell one and retain a flush , it is with a minimum of 6 eggs with no cap on the top side. After that I'm done. As far as the DNA goes, I don't ever see myself spending the money to clone one.

Show Dad · May 18, 2014

Did it once, won't do it again.

Breeder (everyone said that they were a reputable bunch) got so upset that i wouldn't let cow go from a January calver to a May. So finally I reluctantly gave in (not at my convenience). Then was told it had to be done at a facility over 250 miles away. I said I wouldn't do that when there were better facilities closer. They eventually came and loaded her on their trailer. Then after two month and two flushes later (deal was for one) I'm told if I don't want to pay a daily fee I have to pick her up (which wasn't the agreement). When I get there I find her looking like they have starved her (she lost almost 300 pounds). Now I'm bucket feeding her calf, she doesn't get bred until the following fall.

Needless to say that they so devalued the cow what I thought was a deal was really a nightmare. I did resolve this problem by gathering all the information I needed to prove they went beyond the agreement in their sale catalog and had a "come to Jesus" meeting and told them what I was going to do if they didn't compensate me for my trouble (which they did).

Moral of the story: If the animal is that good, keep her and sell her after you're done flushing her.

Selling animals with a right to flush

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