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Offline ELBEE

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Re: Shorthorn bull
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2009, 05:35:35 AM »




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Offline r.n.reed

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Re: Shorthorn bull
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2009, 07:53:27 AM »
 Jake's Proud Jazz      2 crosses of Double Stuff's sire close up,2x enticer a dash of Rodeo Drive, a whole lot of Dividend,Not much of an outcross.
Gary Kaper

Offline knabe

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Re: Shorthorn bull
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2009, 08:57:40 AM »
i think people get to crossed up worrying about relatedness when you should be really worried about phenotype and if sire is prepotent for his desirable characteristics that fit your breeding goals.  too many full sibs out there that differ.  yes there are ones out there that are similar, but if one wants to build for the future, and accumulate a phenotype, you are not going to get it easier by constantly outcrossing the pedigree while incrossing the phenotype.  it's probably easier  to breed type to type if pedigree is the same as the recombination patterns will be more predictable.  it's pretty hard to increase the percentage of an individual without careful linebreeding that exceeds the initial cross offspring with something other than a sire daughter mating.  the obvious thing to watch for is concentration of phenotype faults.  ie, if something doesn't have the faults of the bull you are interested in, it's debatable whether the odds are increased for segregation of the faults if you bred the bull to something unrelated in the first place.  not real sure why people don't see that concentrating even half sibs is difficult to match the original contribution of the makeup of an individual.

offspring of two half sibs would have the same contribution in the offspring as a full sire offspring.
two full sibs offspring would have same ratio as themselves, just recombined differently and biased towards phenotype of individuals, subject to recombination.
it's just a way essentially to create a new fullblood.

the problem of course is that every linebred animal is not worth keeping and must be under probably more stringent culling practices, which mostly probably doesn't happen too much anymore as numbers required to do this exceeds most breeders capacity or curiosity.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 09:16:03 AM by knabe »

Offline r.n.reed

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Re: Shorthorn bull
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2009, 10:48:49 AM »
 Excellent Knabe,The only reason for a true outcross bull is either more sales opportunities or a change in direction for a breeding program.If the latter is the case a person may want to consider starting over to speed the process.What people need to find is the Trump or DS influenced bull that will linebreed with the highest percentage of keepers
Gary Kaper

Offline knabe

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Re: Shorthorn bull
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2009, 12:00:54 PM »
What people need to find is the Trump or DS influenced bull that will linebreed with the highest percentage of keepers

remember, you must first go through a heavy culling phase where you will have the lowest percentage keepers, which, sadly, most won't do as the culls are just too "valuable".

since no one really test crosses their bulls on say 30 daughters, the allure of linebreeding is mostly unverified except through better cows where his impact won't be so easily visible.

It's probably best to test cross some bulls on the more than one set of contemporary set of cows for a decent evaluation with differing "qualities".

Offline Redwine Cattle

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Re: Shorthorn bull
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2009, 01:45:45 PM »
i think people get to crossed up worrying about relatedness when you should be really worried about phenotype and if sire is prepotent for his desirable characteristics that fit your breeding goals.  too many full sibs out there that differ.  yes there are ones out there that are similar, but if one wants to build for the future, and accumulate a phenotype, you are not going to get it easier by constantly outcrossing the pedigree while incrossing the phenotype.  it's probably easier  to breed type to type if pedigree is the same as the recombination patterns will be more predictable.  it's pretty hard to increase the percentage of an individual without careful linebreeding that exceeds the initial cross offspring with something other than a sire daughter mating.  the obvious thing to watch for is concentration of phenotype faults.  ie, if something doesn't have the faults of the bull you are interested in, it's debatable whether the odds are increased for segregation of the faults if you bred the bull to something unrelated in the first place.  not real sure why people don't see that concentrating even half sibs is difficult to match the original contribution of the makeup of an individual.

offspring of two half sibs would have the same contribution in the offspring as a full sire offspring.
two full sibs offspring would have same ratio as themselves, just recombined differently and biased towards phenotype of individuals, subject to recombination.
it's just a way essentially to create a new fullblood.

the problem of course is that every linebred animal is not worth keeping and must be under probably more stringent culling practices, which mostly probably doesn't happen too much anymore as numbers required to do this exceeds most breeders capacity or curiosity.

Whoa....You just blew my mind!!! Very nicely put.
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity"       ~Seneca

Offline sue

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Re: Shorthorn bull
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2009, 03:35:27 AM »
lakeside has some bulls that would fit that bill...

Thanks - I missed you in Louisville this year? I stayed home! First time since the late 80s?

Yes - Captain Obvious  is on the market through Cattle Visions. His first daughters calve this winter. He is very versitile- steers, bulls heifers. Definately well under a 6 frame. Super disposition and sound. No trump, rodeo drive, stuff, eagle, or gold spear or jpj in pedigree. Any one that has seen Captain - loves him and his babies. The breds are definately beefy, smooth good shoulder, deep sided mamas.

Sorry I cannot post pic - just go to Cattlevisions
Registered Red Angus x Shorthorn Composite Cattle. www.lakesidecattle.com

Offline linnettejane

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Re: Shorthorn bull
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2009, 07:03:23 AM »
lakeside has some bulls that would fit that bill...

Thanks - I missed you in Louisville this year? I stayed home! First time since the late 80s?

Yes - Captain Obvious  is on the market through Cattle Visions. His first daughters calve this winter. He is very versitile- steers, bulls heifers. Definately well under a 6 frame. Super disposition and sound. No trump, rodeo drive, stuff, eagle, or gold spear or jpj in pedigree. Any one that has seen Captain - loves him and his babies. The breds are definately beefy, smooth good shoulder, deep sided mamas.

Sorry I cannot post pic - just go to Cattlevisions


missed you guys too!  we were wondering where you were! 
If God brings you to it - He will bring you through it!

http://www.facebook.com/JessieCattleCo

Offline Davis Shorthorns

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Re: Shorthorn bull
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2009, 08:08:36 AM »
Isaw Captain a few months ago up at Lakesides, and he is a really good bull.  Defiantly thick, easy calving, smooth shouldered bull that will down size most of today's trump type cattle while adding volume.
I like Cows.  That is all.

Offline r.n.reed

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Re: Shorthorn bull
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2009, 02:16:38 PM »
 I saw the Captain's dam about 3 weeks ago.She would definitely add to his value as a herd bull.
Gary Kaper

Offline sue

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Re: Shorthorn bull
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2009, 06:39:21 PM »
We purchased Captain based on the photo of his dam and granddam.  The granddam was the oldest female in Dover's herd and the time A&T purchased there group of heifers. When we visited DRC 244MU was our pick ( Captain's dam)
 The longevity is definately stacked in the top of the pedigree too- JG Red Cloud, 7026 both bred until 10 plus years.
 The most recent photo was taken the end of September  just a few days after Davis visited - this is his pasture condition.
Registered Red Angus x Shorthorn Composite Cattle. www.lakesidecattle.com

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Shorthorn bull
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2009, 08:39:22 PM »
To knabe-In 1991 I traveled in Ireland (the land of my forefathers) to see the holy grail of shorthorn cattle DEERPARK-MSR Edward Quane _breeder of Deerpark Leader the 13th -18th -Improver-and essentially-a group of linebred cattle- (sorry forgot Ellbee-and Scott in OHio who ARE STILL LINEBREEDING IMPROVER+ TO THIS DAY)-that changed the course of ShorthornCattle-and Club Calves forever. Everything Quane did-linebreeding mother-son and every combination imaginable-would be the antithesis to your theorys as presented-just curious-which strain of cattle were you alluding to-hate to say it-there are traces of shorthorn dna in almost every european breed of cattle other than chis, herefords,and horned black welsh  O0

Offline knabe

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Re: Shorthorn bull
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2009, 09:06:42 PM »
wasn't referring to anyone.  just that most people don't do it.

why is what quane did the opposite of what i said?

i agree shorthorn are everywhere.

Offline outspoken

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Re: Shorthorn bull
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2009, 05:11:24 PM »
Didn't really read this post.. will do so after monday since I am at home for the week..

to the original question..

Wildside... Saw him, and he is the real deal... especially for an 8 or 9 year old bull...  His owner is on here, and boy o boy am I glad I bought a son...  Outcross, moderate, correct- and can he make females...  The bull's younger pictures didn't really turn me on- but see him in person!!!  as an old bull, check out his daughters, and this son that I just bought.  

This ole boy inpressed my buddy, who runs a commercial & Purebred Angus operation to try out to ole rip on a few cows!  to make some interesting colored mama cows.

Good rip... I wouldn't go JPJ... not enough soundness on the front end especially.  Way to over used... IMO  People think he's the savior- NOT
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 08:23:24 PM by kfacres »

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Shorthorn bull
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2009, 07:13:26 PM »
wasn't referring to anyone.  just that most people don't do it.

why is what quane did the opposite of what i said?

i agree shorthorn are everywhere.
They didnt do the opposite per-se its just decades on end they had no choice-they couldnt get any outside blood-and refused to mix thier cattle with the English and Scotch pony cattle-which dominated from the late 20s into the 70s-so they wound those cattle up for over 50 years,good bad and indifferent, and stiill are doing the same thing. The interesting thing was those beef cattle I saw-were all shapes and sizes-and all really good.There really wasnt the uniformity in type one would expect O0 <beer>

 

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