Quantcast Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock


Author Topic: Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock  (Read 52890 times)


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Re: Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock
« Reply #90 on: May 13, 2016, 02:36:36 PM »
Dbird, you pretty much hit the nail on the head with the Shorthorn breed. We have no consistency. Some say our diversity is a strength, I say it's a weakness.

 The only Shorthorn cattle I have found that perform as good or better commercially than Angus are the A&T cattle with the Dover Ranch influence.

 I like to say there are about 4 or 5 breeds of Shorthorns within the breed...

  • I definitely agree with you about the diversity being a weakness.  Diversity in bloodlines and scale (size) is a good thing.  Diversity in type is not a good thing.  Form fits function: the ideal beef production phenotype is not subjective.  Just as there is an ideal phenotype for an NFL offensive lineman, there is an ideal phenotype for an efficient beef cow. With all things, there is a MOST ideally suited design
  • The lack of consistency is from generations of crossing dissimilar phenotypes. Similar to what you say you're doing with Renegade and Apostle: crossing dissimilar phenotypes and expecting the offspring to go on to breed consistently. You've stated you've already experienced the unsatisfactory results of using SH bulls that were bred by crossing dissimilars -- why you think that same outcome won't present itself in your current situation of crossing dissimilars, I'm not sure.
  • I find your comment about the A&T cattle with DRC influence being the 'only' SH cattle to perform as good as Angus to be pretty ironic.  I mean, you do realize that only a quarter of Renegade's OR Captain Rob's pedigree has any DRC influence?  The entire top HALF of Renegade's pedigree is Eionmor breeding.  The entire bottom HALF of Captain Rob's pedigree is Rob Sneed breeding.  Maybe you can shed some light on why you leave out mentioning the predominant influence in those cattle and instead give credit to the A&T or DRC influence. 
  • I agree that the DRC influenced cattle are really good cattle.  Quite of few of my cows have DRC breeding within a generation or two. In fact, just last month I bought a group of purebred heifers from Ralph Larson- most of which have a double shot of DRC breeding.  They're good cows absolutely,, but so are their unrelated herd mates- cows out of JSF bred Tsunami sons (Gauge, Troubadour, Red Rebel),  cows out of JSF bred Jazz sons (Proud Jake 49U, Jazz star 73U, Maestro 35U, Master of Jazz 22U) and on and on.  I've had commercial cattle all my life- I know where the bar/standard of commercially acceptability is. These SH's I've mentioned are good cattle too and can and do perform right along side them. 

On your first point once again you are wrong. I am not crossing dissimilar cattle. Apostle is more "like kind" to Renegade than any other Shorthorn bull I have ever used besides GS&J Captain Rob 3X. I will have to wait to see on his daughters and their mothering ability and their udders but by the calving ease and vigor of his calves I don't have any doubts things will be good. Go up and read Dbird's comments again and then you either believe me or think I'm a liar. The birth weights were consistent and from what you are saying they should be all over the board correct? You need to open your mind a bit, breeding like kind to like kind is within itself a breed. I am creating my own herd and my own breed of cattle if you will. Anyone can do it and create consistency if they follow certain phenotypical guidelines and culling practices.
To your second point: I personally believe the DRC cattle are more potent in the bloodlines of Renegade and Captain Rob. I'm taking nothing away from Marquis because he is obviously a great bull and a piece of the puzzle and also the Sneed cattle, and the others. My point is this. The DRC cattle were pretty much off the grid. They didn't use looks to impress, they used real world needs in the range they lived on. They culled hard and to create very potent traits in their cattle. It doesn't have to be all about line breeding if you are breeding animals that are like kind and have come from programs that have culled hard for generations for the right things.
On your third point: I cannot say too much about these comments because only time will tell which of the bloodlines will calve easier, get bred back, will have good tight udders that hold up till they are over 10 years old, etc. I am in no way bashing any of these people's programs and please don't make it out to seem that way. I am speaking of my experience and that has been that the DRC bloodlines mixed with A&T's breeding decisions have turned out really, really well. It is very hard to find other Shorthorn genetics and programs that match this. I have told these breeders either at dinner, on the phone, or over private messaging these very concerns. They know where I'm coming from and know it's nothing personal. They know what I'm looking for and the difference. Lot's of really upstanding people out there and I'm sure there are Shorthorn bulls out there that will compliment what I am doing without sacrificing anything but it is really difficult to find that individual when I do look around. Let me be real clear about this though... The Apostle bull is not a replacement for my Shorthorn bulls but another part of our overall program. The Shorthorn seedstock end is a very important piece of this puzzle and makes these Apostle calves what they are in my mind. They are very valuable because of the foundation behind them.

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock
« Reply #91 on: May 13, 2016, 05:22:07 PM »
Define 'like kind.' Outside of them both having four legs, two eyes, two ears, and a tail, they're not phenotypically similiar at all.


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Re: Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock
« Reply #92 on: May 13, 2016, 10:43:20 PM »
Define 'like kind.' Outside of them both having four legs, two eyes, two ears, and a tail, they're not phenotypically similiar at all.
As you said function comes before form right? We selected a bull from a program that is aligned with our ideals. We knew exactly what we were getting and I went through over 400 head of bulls at the sale with very good cattlemen all around. Everyone is very transparent about what bulls are what. Ok so here are some things that I looked at. 1. Calving ease/ calf vigor. This was proven to us by sampling Leachman Testify the year before. Testify proved worthy and equal to Renegade on calf vigor. Till then no other bull had come close with C-Rob a close second. 2. Low birth weight 3. Moderate cow mature weight. Apostle's dam weighs around 1100 lbs. 4. Mothering ability/udder quality. We assume this because of the massive amount of rancher type customers and no nonsense type cooperators and their philosophies. 5. The emphasis on carcass quality and yield grades. 6. Culling practices similar to ours.

So when all of these factors begin to take root, over time you will have similar performing animals emerge as the survivors and those animals will not always look identical but will likely have similar features like you mentioned before. Especially if we are talking about moderate mature size, calving ease, low birth weight. When we get into high bw's and larger yearling weights then we will see courser bone, broader shoulders, bigger hocks, bigger hips, larger heads, tighter in the heart. I see more of these dissimilarities with the Shorthorns than I do with these stabilizer bulls I am using.

Offline knabe

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Re: Shorthorn - Native Breeding Stock
« Reply #93 on: May 13, 2016, 11:20:55 PM »
Id like to hear everyone describe "commercial " type cattle

Maybe we could start with yours?
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