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Offline Doc

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Re: Shorthorn News !!
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2007, 07:58:22 AM »
 JIT, I agree with you a lot on your post about the Irish cattle . I really agree with you on the Galloway part thru Improver, look at Shannon Margie 027(Improver dtr.) also known as Black nosed Margie it wasn't anything to see a calf with a black spot on it. The big thing I don't like about the app. program is when you it costs you more to upgrade from app. status to purebred status. If you want to encourage people to do it you shouldn't charge them more.
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Offline justintime

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Re: Shorthorn News !!
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2007, 08:22:48 AM »
SRU,  I have no accurate data on the frame size and weights of the Irish cattle but my estimation would be that the average Irish animal was about a frame 7 with some probably reaching frame 8. There were some that were only frame 6 but some of that may have been due to enviromental conditions. These cattle were truely "grass cattle" as they virtually never got any other supplemental feed in the Irish herds. As for weights, there again was considerable variation but on average I would estimate bulls at 2250 to 2350 lb ( in good shape) and females 1600 to 1750 lb. There were some huge cattle in this branch of the breed. Deerpark Dividend 's mother probably weighed over a ton. There were some others that did as well.
Another thing that the Irish cattle did, that I did not mention in my previous post, was that they helped correct the testicles in many Shorthorn males. Many Shorthorns at the time of the Irish importations had twisted tesicles, ie: testicles that did not hang straight and were also possibly tipped. The Irish males had very good testicles that hung straight. I see the twisted testicles reappearing again in some Shorthorns. It may be mostly cosmetic but it certainly does bother commercial bull buyers.
I have attached a picture of a full Irish bull we are using presently. He is a son of Highfield Irish Mist, who was imported in 1971 . This bull is HC Mist's Return 13R and he has the shortest gestation length of any bull we have used in many years. Because of this, he is extremely easy calving and he is being used on most of our heifers. He is pictured here at two years of age and he has been running with 45 heifers for two months.
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Offline itk

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Re: Shorthorn News !!
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2007, 09:09:23 AM »
Besides heterosis an appendix program also takes away breed identity. Walk through the alleys at any show and the limmys, maines, guppies, simmys, angus all look the same. I feel that so much of the pride and heritage that the shorthorn breed has comes from the red, white and roan. I know that the assoc. has checks in place but I never want to see the day when black purebreds are allowed to be registered. What a sticky wicket that would be. Would it be better to have a black shorthorn that was registered purebred or a roan animal that was only 3/4 blood? The purest in me says the breed will never want to change it's red, white and roan roots. However, with an increased interest in crossbreeding programs and the change in policy on what is and isn't asterisk free cattle a few years ago the idea of black shorthorns might not be that far fetched. If it was only about raising "good" cattle there would be no need for breed associations. When I look at the operations that have been around for almost a century and sometimes more in this breed I see the pride that they have in their cattle and the history behind them. This makes me positive that there is more to this breed then just "good" cattle.
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Offline SRU

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Re: Shorthorn News !!
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2007, 10:03:05 AM »
i have an unregistered 3/4 shorthorn black brockle cow (looks like a muscular meyer) that has black brockle babies out of double vision.  by my math that is 13/16 and black, they're usually pretty good.  black purebreds could be created pretty easily without the current (black = 1/2 blood) rule.



Besides heterosis an appendix program also takes away breed identity. Walk through the alleys at any show and the limmys, maines, guppies, simmys, angus all look the same. I feel that so much of the pride and heritage that the shorthorn breed has comes from the red, white and roan. I know that the assoc. has checks in place but I never want to see the day when black purebreds are allowed to be registered. What a sticky wicket that would be. Would it be better to have a black shorthorn that was registered purebred or a roan animal that was only 3/4 blood? The purest in me says the breed will never want to change it's red, white and roan roots. However, with an increased interest in crossbreeding programs and the change in policy on what is and isn't asterisk free cattle a few years ago the idea of black shorthorns might not be that far fetched. If it was only about raising "good" cattle there would be no need for breed associations. When I look at the operations that have been around for almost a century and sometimes more in this breed I see the pride that they have in their cattle and the history behind them. This makes me positive that there is more to this breed then just "good" cattle.
IF HYPOCRACY WERE AN ENERGY SOURCE, WE COULD DRILL IN CONGRESS.
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Offline Doc

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Re: Shorthorn News !!
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2007, 10:07:44 AM »
 JIT, What kind of cow is your Mist son out of? Do you have semen in the US with anyone? My Leader x Scarlet cow crossed really well with Mist himself but I'm out of that semen. I'm looking at different bulls to flush her to this fall.
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enough to take everything you have.   -- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Will

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Re: Shorthorn News !!
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2007, 10:45:29 AM »
What is your opinion of Hazel Leap.  I have one daughter and several granddaughters.  They do not look that great but consistantly raise really good calves.  Some of our more successful show calves we had sold goes back to Hazel leap.
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Offline Doc

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Re: Shorthorn News !!
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2007, 11:31:17 AM »
 Will, I have always liked HL dtrs & Lazy D HL Quane (Hazel Leap son) dtrs. I had a Hazel Leap dtr of the original Miss Springfield cow that was a real good cow. They are usually mod. frame with real good milk production. Still have semen on both bulls.
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong
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Offline Will

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Re: Shorthorn News !!
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2007, 11:56:39 AM »
Will, I have always liked HL dtrs & Lazy D HL Quane (Hazel Leap son) dtrs. I had a Hazel Leap dtr of the original Miss Springfield cow that was a real good cow. They are usually mod. frame with real good milk production. Still have semen on both bulls.


One of the biggest mistake I ever made was not buying some Hazel leap semen.  About ten years ago I could have bought a semen tank that had  several straws of hazel leap,  it also had a lot of other really old shorthorn semen.  Alot of it was in amples.  I was not that familiar with most of it so I passed on the opportunity.  The worst thing about it was a widow who was trying to sell it and I later heard she sold the tank and contents to a dairy and he probably just through it away.    I wish I had a few more of those Hazel Leap daughters.  Mine are on the moderate side and are finer boned than I like, but thier calves are always stouter than expected and have a really good rib shape.  As you pointed out they all milk really well and breed back quickly.  We sold a steer a few years ago that had a lot of success out of our old hazel leap cow.
Purple banners do not make a champion HARD WORK DOES

Offline justintime

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Re: Shorthorn News !!
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2007, 12:40:39 PM »
Hazel Leap was, in my opinion, one of the better breeding sires to come to North America from Ireland. He certainly did not get the promotion or the recognition he deserved, and his breeding merit did not get noticed until he was gone.Some people said his daughters did not milk as good as those from some other sires. That may be, but I never heard of a Leap daughter that did not bring in a good calf in the fall and usually they held their condition as well.  I have often wondered if there was any semen from him or his son, Lady D HL Quane around. Hazel Leap was one of the few animals by Deerpark Leader 8th to come to North America. If my memory is correct, the 8th was lost ar a young age so there was only a few cattle born from him. He was a brother to Deerpark Leader 4th who was in my opinion, possibly the best breeding bull of the Deerpark strain. The Leader 4th females were usually very tremendous females.
Hazel Leaps son, Quane, was a great one. Again, he probably appeared on the scene at the wrong time to get the proper recognition. Quane daughters are great producers. I saw Quane as an older bull and he was impressive, probably weighing close to 2500 lb and a real beef bull. If there is any Quane semen around, someone should try to gather it up before  it is lost.
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and bad breath!
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity
If love is blind... why is lingerie so popular?
The only thing worse than an idiot ... is an educated idiot!

Offline Show Heifer

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Re: Shorthorn News !!
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2007, 12:58:38 PM »
Here's a few thoughts....
First, shorthorn plus is just plain awful. First thing that crossed my mind was "gee, a commercial shorthorn is BETTER (plus) than a "purebred". Whoever thought of that sure wasn't thinking!!

Second, I agree with a thought from above (maybe itk), that there is no purebred breed anymore. Genetic selection works only so fast and angus getting super frame-y in a few short years along with white udders didn't happen because of "selection". Nor did the maines and simmies get black due to "genetic selection". Its pretty sad when you have to look at the sign to see what breed it is, or worse, call the number in the ad to see what breed the picture is suppose to be.

Third, My brain is foggy on this but, the limis have a Fullblood, purebred, and so on....I think that is good. The full french limis had a bad attitude, but you sure wouldn't confuse them for some other breed...no sireeee~!

Fourth, You mention the word heterosis to the typical bull/heifer buyer, and they look like your speaking ancient greek. But after explaining, and maybe proving, what it is, most will go for that "purebred" bull.

Fifth, most bull/heifer buyers don't give a darn about registration papers, as long as they trust the pedigree you tell them. My cattle are "registered". Meaning, I can give you at least 3 generations on both sides of the pedigree AND performance data. And it is even on my computer!!! I have a good reputation, so people trust what I tell them and realize of piece of paper means nothing to them.

Sixth, I still have a huge gripe with the angus assoc. Seems like they just don't give a darn about registering cattle from "little guys". I am hoping I will have better luck with the limi assoc...so far they have been great!

Seventh, Maybe all the breeds should just combined and make "The Amercian Black cattle Assoc" and "The Amercian Red cattle assoc." That way, color would be the only consideration, and the purebred would be equal to the crossbreds and no one would be paid too much money to come up with silly crossbred breeding names.

Eighth, Every breed has a place in the industry. Yep, even the Dexters, even the longhorns (like the one in the classifieds  ;) ). As well as the belted galloways, limis, maines, shorties, angus, charlies (sorry can't spell!), correntias, beefmaster, braunvieh, gelvieh, etc. But if we continue to crossbred, the differences will disappear and so will the breeds.

Ninth, It is ok to have diversification within a breed. Clubbie shorties, and breeding shorties. That is ok, but lets not confuse the two.....heck, do we want to turn into the hog industry?????

Tenth, Do what works for you, and let your neighbor do what works for them. We can all get along if we both are honest.

I will now climb off my soap box and take some aspirin....I have a headache!! (clapping)
You had tthe right not display your lack of command of the english language. Too bad you have chosen not to. - Brit, senior student

Offline stick

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Re: Shorthorn News !!
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2007, 02:20:03 PM »
I think I remember seeing in an old Shorthorn Country that Gordon Brockmueller still had semen for sale on him ( H L Quane). Not sure if he still does or not.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 02:21:02 PM by stick »

Offline garybob

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Re: Shorthorn News !!
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2007, 04:27:25 PM »
I remembered from 4H (circa 1987) the other day, that the one thing to put in your reasons, if you needed a "tie breaker" in placing a class of breeding stock, was "Breed Character", follwed by "sex character".

Where have we gone in 20 years?


 

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