Shorthorn Question

Davis Shorthorns · Sep 13, 2010

M Bar said:
Cripes, Grant. We are talking about whether the breed will be back to #3 or #4 and you bring up shows....who cares about a darn show. How can a breed get more registrations? I believe that it is not though a halter, it is through cattlemen with "herds" of cattle believing in, producing, marketing, and registering shorthorn cattle. Maybe I am crazy, but it really, in my humble opinion, boils down to that. Please tell me that I am crazy.

well we know that you are crazy, but you are right.

trevorgreycattleco · Sep 13, 2010

justintime said:
M Bar said:

Cripes, Grant. We are talking about whether the breed will be back to #3 or #4 and you bring up shows....who cares about a darn show. How can a breed get more registrations? I believe that it is not though a halter, it is through cattlemen with "herds" of cattle believing in, producing, marketing, and registering shorthorn cattle. Maybe I am crazy, but it really, in my humble opinion, boils down to that. Please tell me that I am crazy.

Click to expand...

You are 100% correct Troy,and I could not agree with you more. My comments were only meant to respond to feeder duck's comments about how the breed has backed itself into a corner. I think you will agree with me, that there are very few breeders east of the Mississippi who care about selling bulls( or females for that matter) to commercial producers. We have the same divide here in Canada between east and west. My point is that if the breed has backed itself into a corner, I think we can also blame ourselves. I expect my herd is much like yours. The commercial man is my main concern and always will be.My main focus has changed over the years and while there was always a commercial componet in it, today the commercial sector is the main part of my focus. Back to the original discussion, whether the Shorthorn breed will ever get to 3 or 4 th position in breed popularity. The short answer is NO. It will not happen at least in my lifetime, and it won't happen until something happens to bring the biggest black breed off it's throne. I do believe that there is room for some significant breed growth and I think we are starting to see it in some areas. There are Shorthorn breeders in my area who are selling almost twice as many bulls as they did a decade ago.I am selling over twice as many as I did a decade ago, and my next goal is to see a 25% increase in that in the next 5 years. I think it is possible. A decade ago, the closest Shorthorn breeder to me was in North Dakota. Ten years later, there are seven Shorthorn breeders who live closer than him. It takes time and an real pile of work and commitment. It is one thing to have a goal but it is only achievable if you believe in your goal and have the product the market wants. No goals will ever be achieved if all we do is blame our problems on someone else.

I apologize if my last comments were off base from the original intent of this thread. I was only commenting that shows are a big part of this breed, and I think how they are run is a factor to some of what is happening in the breed.

Thats the spirit JIT, keep the glass half empty. Your not that old ! The day mat come sooner than you think. I live east of the Mississippi and I could care less about showing. I can think of a bunch of breeders east of the Miss who do not breed for show. It's happening right before our eyes IMO. Capiche is knocking them dead for Select right now and the calves are recieving good reviews. Call Aaron Rasmussen at A@T and see what he thinks. Ask him how shorties are doing n his neck of the woods. Thats the heart of cow country in the US. If they are working there, they can work alot of places.

justintime · Sep 13, 2010

trevorgreycattleco said:
justintime said:

M Bar said:

Cripes, Grant. We are talking about whether the breed will be back to #3 or #4 and you bring up shows....who cares about a darn show. How can a breed get more registrations? I believe that it is not though a halter, it is through cattlemen with "herds" of cattle believing in, producing, marketing, and registering shorthorn cattle. Maybe I am crazy, but it really, in my humble opinion, boils down to that. Please tell me that I am crazy.

Click to expand...

You are 100% correct Troy,and I could not agree with you more. My comments were only meant to respond to feeder duck's comments about how the breed has backed itself into a corner. I think you will agree with me, that there are very few breeders east of the Mississippi who care about selling bulls( or females for that matter) to commercial producers. We have the same divide here in Canada between east and west. My point is that if the breed has backed itself into a corner, I think we can also blame ourselves. I expect my herd is much like yours. The commercial man is my main concern and always will be.My main focus has changed over the years and while there was always a commercial componet in it, today the commercial sector is the main part of my focus. Back to the original discussion, whether the Shorthorn breed will ever get to 3 or 4 th position in breed popularity. The short answer is NO. It will not happen at least in my lifetime, and it won't happen until something happens to bring the biggest black breed off it's throne. I do believe that there is room for some significant breed growth and I think we are starting to see it in some areas. There are Shorthorn breeders in my area who are selling almost twice as many bulls as they did a decade ago.I am selling over twice as many as I did a decade ago, and my next goal is to see a 25% increase in that in the next 5 years. I think it is possible. A decade ago, the closest Shorthorn breeder to me was in North Dakota. Ten years later, there are seven Shorthorn breeders who live closer than him. It takes time and an real pile of work and commitment. It is one thing to have a goal but it is only achievable if you believe in your goal and have the product the market wants. No goals will ever be achieved if all we do is blame our problems on someone else.

I apologize if my last comments were off base from the original intent of this thread. I was only commenting that shows are a big part of this breed, and I think how they are run is a factor to some of what is happening in the breed.

Click to expand...

Thats the spirit JIT, keep the glass half empty. Your not that old ! The day mat come sooner than you think. I live east of the Mississippi and I could care less about showing. I can think of a bunch of breeders east of the Miss who do not breed for show. It's happening right before our eyes IMO. Capiche is knocking them dead for Select right now and the calves are recieving good reviews. Call Aaron Rasmussen at A@T and see what he thinks. Ask him how shorties are doing n his neck of the woods. Thats the heart of cow country in the US. If they are working there, they can work alot of places.

I am at a complete loss, as to what you read into my last comment. I did not say anything about there being breeders east of the Mississippi who do not breed to show.They are probably more breeders who do not show than there are those that do. What I meant was I do not know of more than a handful of breeders east of the Mississippi who raise keep enough bulls to have their own bull sale or even have a large enough selection of bulls to attract a commerical man to their yard. There are a few, but not many. Most of the herds in the eastern parts of the US and Canada are smaller and it harder to offer a good selection of bulls. I am sure there are some breeders who are doing a great job of moving the majority of their bulls into commercial herds, but don't know of many.There are some larger herds in your part of the world, ( by larger, I mean over 100 breeding females) but I cannot think of more than one or two who would market more than 10-15 % of their male calves born as breeding animals. Most of the breeders I speak to in the eastern US tell me, that they can get more money for a Shorthorn steer at weaning, than they can for a yearling bull. Until that changes, it is going to be hard to see the major breed growth this breed will need to move up the ladder to 3rd or 4th place. I firmly believe that any breed who wants to have serious breed growth needs to have a strong commercial side of it, and that also includes having a strong commercial bull market. That is not happening ... at least not fast enough. That said, if you think it is up to the breed association to make this happen, you care defeated before you even start. It takes a dedicated effort on the part of the breeders, and they have to offer a product that will make the commercial man have to stop and think. It does not happen over night, and many breeders get part way and then give up. If the show side of the breed is not producing the type of animals that work in the commercial sector, what is stopping you or anyone else from producing a product that will work in it? Absolutely nothing. The genetics are there. You just have to add some serious hard work and a good product.

And what do you mean about my keeping the glass half empty? I do not think I have ever been more pumped up about the future of the Shorthorn breed,at least in my part of the world, in my lifetime. I think you may be the first person to ever accuse me of having my glass half empty. Although I am excited about the progress we have seen in commercial sales of Shorthorn bulls and females here, I also fully realize that the Shorthorn breed will not ever gain enough popularity to be 3rd or 4th in breed popularity... which is the original topic presented in this thread. That does not mean we cannot have some major growth. In order for Shorthorns getting to 3rd or 4th place they would have to replace one or more of these breeds, Angus, Hereford, Simmental, Red Angus or Charolais and maybe a couple others. I don't see that happening.So what exactly is wrong with the Shorthorn breed getting to 6th in popularity.. or even 8th? If we can get to a place where anyone who wants to raise Shorthorns and provides the promotion that is needed, and can make a living doing it, is there anything wrong with that? Would it be terrible if the Shorthorn breed continued on in future decades with a strong show ring sector, if we could also develop a strong commercial sector? We have the genetics to do both, and if you don't agree with that, you haven't studied many of the genetics we have available. Does that make my glass half empty? I suspect it makes me a realist more than anything. Does that mean I think there is no future for this breed? Absolutely not !Like I said I cannot remember a time in my lifetime, when so I was so excited about this breed starting to get used more and more in commercial herds.... at least here in Canada.

And please explain what Capiche has to do with what I said? I am as happy as anyone, that there is finally a good Shorthorn bull in a major AI stud. I am excited that he is getting used and used hard. That is great to see. That is one small step in the gain of Shorthorn popularity, but it is just that... a very small step. The mindset of a pile of breeders has to also change in order for this breed to change it's position. So if that makes my glass half empty... I suspect there are far more with their glass close to being dry.

aj · Sep 13, 2010

Will there be new designations for bc,ac,ag and bg in the shorthorn idustry when all the old school people die off? Birth weights we can live with? Before Cagwin(BC). AC(same). AG(after Grant). So Improver would have been born what 20 years AC. Birth weights starting coming down in what 1ag. And the world found true peace after aj? Or is that to pc? Then you have LT,BS(Before Snyder) my favorite. BD....before Dividend. We gotta get one for bolz and Hunsley to help designate time periods and cultures. You have a Clovis culture. How about. ABC After Bolz's crash. bds would be "before double stuff. AHBI would be After Herd Bull Issue possibly?

Okotoks · Sep 13, 2010

M Bar said:
Cripes, Grant. We are talking about whether the breed will be back to #3 or #4 and you bring up shows....who cares about a darn show. How can a breed get more registrations? I believe that it is not though a halter, it is through cattlemen with "herds" of cattle believing in, producing, marketing, and registering shorthorn cattle. Maybe I am crazy, but it really, in my humble opinion, boils down to that. Please tell me that I am crazy.

I think Grant was just referring to how the emphasis on the show ring hasn't really helped the breed to grow because it is often so far removed from the commercial industry. I really think the breed needs to collect data, run more steer tests and advertise and promote in commercial publications. Crossing shorthorns is a no brainer we just have to get the info out there. if we can increase bull sales to the commercial sector our registration numbers will grow.

oakbar · Sep 13, 2010

Wow, everybody seems to be chasing their tail on this one and no one is getting any closer to changing anyone's minds about anything. Some may have even(unintentionally) caused hard feelings.

Here's how the simple Iowegian sees it:

1. As long as we have CAB commanding a premium in the U.S. market, the Shorthorn breed is fighting an uphill battle for more market share
2. If you don't pay close attention to detail, using Shorthorn bulls may cause BW & CE problems more quickly than a few of the other breeds 3. Shorthorns have many positive characteristics to offer the industry(maternal characteristics, fleshing ability, cutability)
4. Breeders are striving to correct any deficiencies(real or percieved) in the breed to satisfy commercial and show ring customers
5. Neither the show ring nor the commercial world should be a stand alone entity--in my opinion they are not mutually exclusive today
6. The Shorthorn breed has not done as good as some other breeds at measuring performance, etc. for the commercial industry
7. No one line of Shorthorn(or any other breed's)genetics can answer all needs for all cattlemen--you have to plan your matings

IMHO the rest is just semantics and opinion and if you want to spend a lot of time chasing your own or someone else's tail continue your debate. I guess I'm more interested in doing something that actually makes a difference---I'll study the genetics and performance of my herd and those of other breeders, encourage the board to emphasize commercial traits more through gathering performance data on our animals, and support the use of judges at our shows who emphasize both sides of the equation. This may be a "Pollyanna" way of looking at things, but if we don't make a personal commitment to move things in the desired direction we can't expect anyone else to do it for us. To quote one of my favorite perveyors of philosophy(Forrest Gump)"That's all I'm going to say about that!!"

trevorgreycattleco · Sep 13, 2010

JIT relax, all I meant was your comment about shorthorns not getting to # 3 or # 4 in your lifetime. No more. It can happen.
My comments on Capiche were look at this bull............ he is actually making customers happy and he is a shorthorn and he is in a major stud. he is being proven in cattle country. Maybe not everyone likes him but by God it is a bull gettin a foot in the door.

Breed for what works for you and hope it carries over to commercial folks.

Aussie · Sep 14, 2010

trevorgreycattleco said:
Breed for what works for you and hope it carries over to commercial folks.

I don't want to attack the man there is enough of that on here but this quote IMO is the wrong way around. Shouldn't we talk to our commercial customers find out what they want, guide them, but ultimately breed bulls to suit them that they want. I mean the customer is always right. No good having a pen of bulls no one wants because you like them. Work with your client look at his cows. Explain they can use bigger bw bulls on mature cows, quicker growth more weaning weight and supply some hfr bulls. The personal touch works wonders.
On spreading the word
I am sure some of you have done this to break in to the market. It takes balls and knowledge. When I was involved in another breed before I gave in to the black hide myth I visited many commerical cattle men looked at their cows and gave away 100's of staws of semen on home bred bulls I knew would work. Did take time but eventually sold bulls. So the customer is right but can be guided.

trevorgreycattleco · Sep 14, 2010

Aussie said:
trevorgreycattleco said:

Breed for what works for you and hope it carries over to commercial folks.

Click to expand...

I don't want to attack the man there is enough of that on here but this quote IMO is the wrong way around. Shouldn't we talk to our commercial customers find out what they want, guide them, but ultimately breed bulls to suit them that they want. I mean the customer is always right. No good having a pen of bulls no one wants because you like them. Work with your client look at his cows. Explain they can use bigger bw bulls on mature cows, quicker growth more weaning weight and supply some hfr bulls. The personal touch works wonders.
On spreading the word
I am sure some of you have done this to break in to the market. It takes balls and knowledge. When I was involved in another breed before I gave in to the black hide myth I visited many commerical cattle men looked at their cows and gave away 100's of staws of semen on home bred bulls I knew would work. Did take time but eventually sold bulls. So the customer is right but can be guided.

I mean breed what works for you in YOUR enviroment and hope it carries over to the commercial man. I am learning this the hard way. I treat my cows as commercial cows which I think all purebred breeders should do. If you do this and are strict and honest, the commercial people in your area will seek you out. That is all i meant.

trevorgreycattleco · Sep 14, 2010

This is the type of bull I am trying to make for the commercial guy. This bull has not been pampered at all. He has bred about 20 cows as a long yearling (not much I know) but he has held up very good and he is currently looking for more work this fall and spring. I took the pics so they are not very good but you can see well enough.

Okotoks · Sep 14, 2010

trevorgreycattleco said:
This is the type of bull I am trying to make for the commercial guy. This bull has not been pampered at all. He has bred about 20 cows as a long yearling (not much I know) but he has held up very good and he is currently looking for more work this fall and spring. I took the pics so they are not very good but you can see well enough.

Now those are useful bulls. Nice length and that bottom bull has a nice long hip and good hindquarter. We can sell that type to commercial breeders in our area.

trevorgreycattleco · Sep 14, 2010

Sorry should have said. Both pics are of the same bull just a rear shot for Mark T!

trevorgreycattleco · Sep 14, 2010

The bull from Sneed's is in the backround on both pics. O0

Aussie · Sep 14, 2010

Sorry misunderstood. Looking at those great calves on the other thread you are on the right track then. Great all round cattle.

trevorgreycattleco · Sep 15, 2010

Aussie said:
Sorry misunderstood. Looking at those great calves on the other thread you are on the right track then. Great all round cattle.

Thanks aussie!

flacowman · Sep 15, 2010

We kept a few shorties but have just sold most of the herd to do a little rebuilding, and we happened to sell them all, but I would say that any breed that wants to go their own way and NOT ask the commercial cattlemen what they want and need in seedstock animals is on it's way down. Angus cattle have no advantage over any other breed other than an amazing marketing scheme and they have grown to have the variety to please almost anyone who isn't diametrically opposed to black cattle. If all breeds did that then the field would be more level. JMHO y'all <cowboy>

Okotoks · Sep 16, 2010

flacowman said:
We kept a few shorties but have just sold most of the herd to do a little rebuilding, and we happened to sell them all, but I would say that any breed that wants to go their own way and NOT ask the commercial cattlemen what they want and need in seedstock animals is on it's way down. Angus cattle have no advantage over any other breed other than an amazing marketing scheme and they have grown to have the variety to please almost anyone who isn't diametrically opposed to black cattle. If all breeds did that then the field would be more level. JMHO y'all <cowboy>

I agree, if a breed isn't meeting the needs of commercial breeders you are left wth trading cattle between breeders and there is no chance of breed growth.

Okotoks · Sep 17, 2010

Okotoks said:
flacowman said:

We kept a few shorties but have just sold most of the herd to do a little rebuilding, and we happened to sell them all, but I would say that any breed that wants to go their own way and NOT ask the commercial cattlemen what they want and need in seedstock animals is on it's way down. Angus cattle have no advantage over any other breed other than an amazing marketing scheme and they have grown to have the variety to please almost anyone who isn't diametrically opposed to black cattle. If all breeds did that then the field would be more level. JMHO y'all <cowboy>

Click to expand...

I agree, if a breed isn't meeting the needs of commercial breeders you are left wth trading cattle between breeders and there is no chance of breed growth.

That said I think there are enough shorthorn breeders focusing on the commercial market to regain a lot of the market share. (thumbsup)

ELBEE · Sep 20, 2010

Show cattle aside.

Market price -minus .20 Cents per lb. = 0 Shorthorn appearing cattle!

My suburbanite customer doesn't know the difference between birth weight EPD, and EPT preg test! They don't even know what a Shorthorn is, now Longhorn or Durham, yes.

CAB: Greatest marketing strategy ever invented.

CAB is my friend! Consumers are looking for an alternative to (over priced) CAB, or the gray matter stink meat at Piggly-Wiggly. They will pay 3-bucks-a pound for 150 lbs. (1 quarter beef) for their freezer. As long as it's a premium product that fits their budget. Oh-my, a niche for Shorthorns!

My biggest concern is losing the private (mom and pop) processing plants. At that point the breed, as a co-op, will have to take this niche national. I believe that's allready been dreamed of! (right Nik?)

If all this falls apart before I'm too old to care. I'll have a herd of black hided Shorthorns so fast your head will spin.

Shorthorn Question

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