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Offline -XBAR-

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Shorthorn search
« on: January 18, 2012, 10:20:55 PM »
Looking through some shorthorn sale catalogs and I noticed very few bulls or heifers carry the ranch's prefix many genterations back, if any.   I'm looking for shorthorn ranches that are selling cattle with atleast 3 generations of their breeding both top and bottom? The YY Cartwright bull Im using now is Saskvalley bred 3+ generations deep on the top and Dover bred on the bottom.  I've seen a few Keith Lauer and Waukauru bulls that meet the criteria but looking around they seem to be few/far between.  Couldn't find a RS bull that met the criteria either?  Im looking for cattle breeders not brand marketers! Help me out-

Offline sue

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Re: Shorthorn search
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2012, 10:33:56 PM »
chandler . I see where you are headed with all of this. Just remember RR and RS are the same breeding..... RS divorced and dropped RR making all RS... trust me it's still his breeding.
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Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Shorthorn search
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2012, 10:59:28 PM »
chandler . I see where you are headed with all of this. Just remember RR and RS are the same breeding..... RS divorced and dropped RR making all RS... trust me it's still his breeding.

Right, I still can't find any- RR, RS, ASH.., couldn't find any that go 3. ,  What I did find surprising is that RS cattle, Girl 40th in partic, goes back to Hoyt's Enticer and Deerpark breeding. 

Offline Doc

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Re: Shorthorn search
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2012, 06:43:05 AM »
try Martindell Farms.
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enough to take everything you have.   -- Thomas Jefferson

Offline outspoken

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Re: Shorthorn search
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2012, 07:23:43 AM »
going to be hard for you to do...  Less than 15% of the breed, IMO will appeal to you-- and less than half of that will be 3 generations deep of one prefix...

the thing about being 3 generations deep with prefixes... you either have to have a huge, diverse cowherd and bull lineup--- or you have to linebreed--- two things that for the most part- but the majority of people== don't happen...
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 07:24:58 AM by Cut the BS »

Offline r.n.reed

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Re: Shorthorn search
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2012, 07:46:52 AM »
 The typical purebred herd lasts less than 7 years, that's less than one generation.Then like CTBS  said there is only a small percentage of what is left that are not chasing the latest greatest and that is a strong temptation no matter how strong your resolve may be both financially and adrenaline wise.Another factor is the fact that linebreeding is first of all costly and when you do add an outcross which even Frank Haumont did from time to time,if its works it doesn't disappear to quickly from the pedigree.x4180057 is a pedigree that I believe represents a good linebred pedigree that balances some outcrosses.It gets more interesting the farther back you go.
Gary Kaper

Offline E6 Durhams

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Re: Shorthorn search
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2012, 08:04:29 AM »
You would think tho that it would be more prevelant in all breeds but its not. Just looking at the Schaff bull sale catalog. ALOT of what they used heavy has other prefixes up close in the pedigree. Maybe its becoming a lost art. Rob Sneed tells me whenever he brings in a outside bull, it isnt till he uses a son of the introduced blood and the calves are 3/4 his breeding does he get something he will keep. Ocassionally he gets a good animal on the first cross but normally its on the second breeding. aj's herd is a closed herd essentially. I bet he has some 3 gen pedigrees.

Offline outspoken

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Re: Shorthorn search
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2012, 08:59:03 AM »
Rob Sneed tells me whenever he brings in a outside bull, it isnt till he uses a son of the introduced blood and the calves are 3/4 his breeding does he get something he will keep. Ocassionally he gets a good animal on the first cross but normally its on the second breeding.

I agree with this, as I have found the similar things in my flock of sheps...  I'm to the point now, of only using partial outcrosses in the first place- don't even bother with purchasing that outcross- just send a ewe or two somewhere else to be bred- saves money and a generation- or buy an offspring of something I sold... I have only ever used 1- 100% outcross ram-- about 7 years ago, since I haven't used one of more than 25% outcross blood.

Of course Chandler, it wouldn't matter to you- but I could show you several pedigrees where almost every sheep on it, has my prefix for 5 generations.  Of course the difference is-- sheep have a much quicker generation interval, and I have not been in the beef cattle breeding scheme of things as long (First heifer bought in '04 when I was 16- first show steer in '01)...  However, I have bred several half siblings, and mother/ son matings in my short time in the breeding beef project. 

I bet 96% of my flock would be this way if you consider the Harris flock that I purchased in it's entireity in 2007 (5 generations)-- Other than 1 purchased ewe, and 3 of the original Harris ewes- I bet 80% of my current flock would have KF-Acres as the prefix for your required 3 generations- especially my rams.  It was a very linebred group of sheep- and with them came the trustworthy generations of registration papers and lambing records- I traced all 20 ewes and the ram back to a pair of half sisters born in '63.  This was within 12 and 15 generations.  The whole unit, was less than 10 years away from becoming a centinel flock in '07.  "2015" was the key year I believe.  I liked what htese ewes offered to me, and did for me- and within 2 years I had culled out every sheep except 2 ewe families that I had prior to the purchase of the Harris flock- keep in mind I had over 30 ewes before '07, and in '10 we lambed out almost 90 ewes.. 

Offline justintime

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Re: Shorthorn search
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2012, 09:31:45 AM »
I'm presently at a Saskatchewan Beef Conference, and this topic was discussed yesterday. Across all breeds the average time the average herd remains as a purebred breeder is 8 years. I have heard this fact before, and I have always been a little amazed by this fact, as our PB herd was established in 1917 by my grandfather. In reality, I do believe this fact is very correct. There are many reasons for this. Many people get discouraged and quit. In today's world, many breeders have off farm jobs and it becomes too hard to juggle both their job and their breeding herd at home. I can relate to this, even though I have not worked off the farm. For many years, we operated two or more purebred herds along with a large commerical herd and a feedlot. With more than one PB herd, it was hard to properly do as much as I felt I should be doing in either breed.My father and I finally decided to  decide on one breed and concentrate on it, and I do believe it was the right decision... at least for us. Now that my father is 86, and limited in what he can do on the farm, I find it extremely hard to attend as many breed events or even take my cattle to the shows and sales as I feel  should be attending. It is probably a sign of the times, and it probably not get any better. If I could just win the lottery, I might be able to hire enough additional people to allow me to do more of the things I think are important. When I was younger, my dad urged me to travel to as many shows and sales as I could, as he felt visibility was an important part of marketing our cattle. I think he was, at least, partly right, as we have sold many cattle over the years, to people I have met in person at some event.  He also felt the same about advertising. When times got tough, he would tell me that we needed to increase our advertising, again because visibility was a key component to marketing. I also agree to this, and my advertising budget seems to increase every year.

In regards to finding herds that have more than 3 generations of their own breeding in their pedigrees, there are a few... but they are few and far between. Many breeders feel that the introduction of outside genetics is an important part to moving their herds forward.A breeder has to have some amazing genetics to only sell breeding stock and never buy any. I know of several herds that have not added outside females for many years, but have added some herd bulls.  In my herd, I have always had to look for females that I thought could bring our herd forward, as we were holding production sales every year for many years.IMO, in order to hold annual production sales, you need to have a cow herd of over 150 cows in order to be able to retain your own herd replacements and keep the quality in your sale as high as possible.  A few years ago, I was at a point where I had built our herd to where we had several animals with a few generations of our own breeding. I had a breeder come for a herd visit, and he asked me if I would sell some females. I told him I would price every female in the herd and he could pick from the list, and I priced them at prices I felt I needed for them. I thought he would possibly take a few head, but he came back for another look and I left him alone to walk through the herd and make his own decisions. When he came back, he had selected 72 breeding age females. I was again in a situation where I had to add some replacements and it has taken a long time to rebuild my herd numbers. I think it is important to add some outside genetics, especially in regards to herd bulls from time to time, however, with that said, I'm not afraid to use bulls I have raised. Four of my present herd sires were born here, and I may add a couple more this year. Over the years we have used many herd sires that were bred her... but I have alo purhcaed several as well.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 09:43:39 AM by justintime »
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Offline happyrock

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Re: Shorthorn search
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2012, 09:46:45 AM »
Looking through some shorthorn sale catalogs and I noticed very few bulls or heifers carry the ranch's prefix many genterations back, if any.   I'm looking for shorthorn ranches that are selling cattle with atleast 3 generations of their breeding both top and bottom? The YY Cartwright bull Im using now is Saskvalley bred 3+ generations deep on the top and Dover bred on the bottom.  I've seen a few Keith Lauer and Waukauru bulls that meet the criteria but looking around they seem to be few/far between.  Couldn't find a RS bull that met the criteria either?  Im looking for cattle breeders not brand marketers! Help me out-
.     

  Here are a couple prefixes for you to explore
Eionmor
Alta Cedar
Diamond
Glenford
Saskvalley
Muridale
JT

Most have good useful cattle and are decent people to deal with.
HR

Offline Will

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Re: Shorthorn search
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2012, 10:06:36 AM »
Another to look at is Elbee farms.
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Offline outspoken

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Re: Shorthorn search
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2012, 10:11:04 AM »
Another to look at is Elbee farms.
Looking through some shorthorn sale catalogs and I noticed very few bulls or heifers carry the ranch's prefix many genterations back, if any.   I'm looking for shorthorn ranches that are selling cattle with atleast 3 generations of their breeding both top and bottom? The YY Cartwright bull Im using now is Saskvalley bred 3+ generations deep on the top and Dover bred on the bottom.  I've seen a few Keith Lauer and Waukauru bulls that meet the criteria but looking around they seem to be few/far between.  Couldn't find a RS bull that met the criteria either?  Im looking for cattle breeders not brand marketers! Help me out-
.     

  Here are a couple prefixes for you to explore
Eionmor
Alta Cedar
Diamond
Glenford
Saskvalley
Muridale
JT

Most have good useful cattle and are decent people to deal with.
HR

do you think that all of those, (almost) are Candian.. and the fact that the border was closed for what 10 years?  had anything to do with them not outsourcing?  If the border wouldn't have closed, would they have expanded genetically?  I'd read the past, prior to the border closing, and see what they've done since... as to answer that question better...

Offline -XBAR-

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Re: Shorthorn search
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2012, 10:58:32 AM »

Offline OH Breeder

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Life is too short....don't sweat the small stuff.

Offline OH Breeder

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Re: Shorthorn search
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2012, 11:35:09 AM »
This is purely a question. So if their is nothing out there that fits your wants and likes. Why not start now with your own stock. What about an AI sire that is intensively bred? Pick your family and breed your own families. I am sure you have picked females in your current female group that you would  like to replicate. So raise your own sire using the females and an AI sire?
The bull you are using now that you pictured looked pretty moderate in size. I would think you could find a bull to mix with what you have coming.
Life is too short....don't sweat the small stuff.

 

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