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Offline aj

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Shorty hf bulls
« on: August 19, 2010, 07:38:20 AM »
Are these Shorthorn bulls considered heifer bulls.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 10:57:46 PM by aj »
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Offline trevorgreycattleco

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Re: Shorty hf bulls
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2010, 07:48:14 AM »
7026, JPJ, CO are heifer bulls IMO. Mission, maybe, but Rodeo Drive not far back enoug for my liking. I think they are a first step for the breed. Can't forget about Capiche. His dams cow family is flat good. Cagwins would have the Mission, Meadowlane or Creamsted Farms I believe on the 7026? I hope your right aj, I am rebuilding my herd from scratch with these genetics. Using a RS  034 son too. If people tried it out instead of linebreeding Trump year after year, maybe we wouldn't be considered a hobby breed.
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Offline OLD WORLD SHORTIE

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Re: Shorty hf bulls
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2010, 08:42:20 AM »
Show cattle are a niche market, people line breed to obtain a certain amount of uniformity in their cattle. Allthough the bulls you mentioned are great bulls in their own right, their calves have just not been able to compete with the Trump bred cattle in the jr heifer and open female shows across the country. Even though they probly produce the better cattle, just not the flashy All Americans in the shorthorn breed.

Im not even gonna mention shorthorn steers at shows, because most of them are not actual shorthorns. But if you use these bulls you will get a lot better steer calves, then if you were to line breed with Trump cattle.

I like the fact that these bulls are getting the noteriaty they deserve, i just dont like them as my main AI bull, i would like to have a son to use as my low Bw heifer bull/clean up bull but i am still going to stick with a Trump bred bull for my AI work.
 
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Offline garybob

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Re: Shorty hf bulls
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2010, 12:42:00 PM »
Show cattle are a niche market, people line breed to obtain a certain amount of uniformity in their cattle. Allthough the bulls you mentioned are great bulls in their own right, their calves have just not been able to compete with the Trump bred cattle in the jr heifer and open female shows across the country. Even though they probly produce the better cattle, just not the flashy All Americans in the shorthorn breed.

Im not even gonna mention shorthorn steers at shows, because most of them are not actual shorthorns. But if you use these bulls you will get a lot better steer calves, then if you were to line breed with Trump cattle.

I like the fact that these bulls are getting the noteriaty they deserve, i just dont like them as my main AI bull, i would like to have a son to use as my low Bw heifer bull/clean up bull but i am still going to stick with a Trump bred bull for my AI work.
 
Is that kind of like David Ragsdale's "Fire and Ice" theory?

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Offline sue

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Re: Shorty hf bulls
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2010, 04:45:36 PM »
Are these Shorthorn bulls considered heifer bulls? 7026,Mission,JPJ, and Captain Obvious. In alot of ways these bulls seem to exude commercial acceptance in type. Where do you get Mission and 7026 semen? I don't know how these genetics would combine but if a breeder locked onto these bloodlines would they not be on a goldmine?

Meadowlane  will tell you the more you stack 7026 the better it gets. Captain X JPJ combination will hit next spring. Captain's maternal sister is a Mission daughter- her son A&T Rawhide is a grandson of 7026- he was high seller last winter for Blue collar bull sale.
I bred more co back to co. Don Cagwin is not selling his Mission daughters?
 PM me and I can tell where there are a whole bunch of 7026 breeding about 2 hrs into Colorado?

Offline linnettejane

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Re: Shorty hf bulls
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2010, 05:14:23 PM »
are there that many trump or bloodstone lined steers out there being shown and winning?
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Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: Shorty hf bulls
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2010, 05:30:53 PM »
are there that many trump or bloodstone lined steers out there being shown and winning?
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Offline trevorgreycattleco

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Re: Shorty hf bulls
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2010, 08:32:46 PM »
Good points OWS. I have no problem with what you say. I have said it once, I will say it again. Trump line cattle are FLAT HARD TO BEAT in the showring.  Its odd to me you say the bulls mentioned prolly make the better cattle but they won't win in the ring. Which makes me wonder again what are we teaching kids in college as far as livestock appraisal goes. The cattle business is all about turning a profit while producing a good eating experience. Why is that not a priority for judges? Easy keeping cattle that perform well on minimum input is what it is all about IMO.

GB fire and ice matings is becoming a popular term these days lol. I like "cat at a dog show" myself.

sue, would you consider Mission a heifer bull? curious on your thoughts.

Those bulls listed are a great place to start IMO.
Throw in some of the awesome Canadian bred bulls seen here on SP and good things could happen. Just think of the bulls put on here by shorthorn breeders and the positive impact they could have on a nation of black cattle. 30 to 40 million cows running this great nation, I would say 90% is black angus. I see a HUGE window for growth and oppurtunity if we are honest about our cattle and hold each other accountable.
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Offline sjcattleco

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Re: Shorty hf bulls
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2010, 09:02:38 PM »
guys

To get truely calving ease bulls that have at least some consistancy they MUST possess certian qualities!

 They must be at least 3 generations linebred and selected for traits that lend themselves to CE. Crossbred cattle should not be linebred! its a waste of time.

CE bulls should be way under breed average for frame score.  for shorthorns I think the bull should be under frame 5! 

Calving Ease bulls MUST be masculine!!! long necked steery lookig bulls with  average masculinity will not work for CE..They will produce some neat steers but not bulls! and not small babies!!!


"Bulls are the barometer of what a breed has to offer"

Offline trevorgreycattleco

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Re: Shorty hf bulls
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2010, 09:45:49 PM »
sjcc, would you say American Muscle is a heifer bull? Interesting thoughts. What about linebreeding ,say,..... Durham Reds/Blacks 3 generations deep. Would you have anything there?  If both sides of your cross were already linebred?  I appreciate your perspective on true CE. I got alot of work ahead of me.
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Offline sjcattleco

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Re: Shorty hf bulls
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2010, 11:44:01 AM »
All I am going to say is that AM is a calving ease bull here at my place!!!....I am sure there are a hand full of 100#ers out there and someone is pissed but They have a cow that goes back to Dreamboat or Rodeo Drive and they fed 12 lbs of grain right up to the hour before the cow calved and its the bulls fault for the big calf! This year I used  AM  on a big group of cows and I used a 3/4 brother that is even smaller framed and solid red on my bunch of heifers... Pretty much out of necessity.... Our cow herd is all bred so close that we don't get too many surprises any more.. I have a couple of cows that ALWAYS have bigger calves.. over 90# no matter what!

 Calving ease and management also go hand in hand.... Now that there are more people wanting to raise smaller framed cattle, they are not big enough to actually calve at 2 even if you feed them to the point of no profitability let alone losing money... If you want to calve these 5 ish frame 2 yr olds lowlines are the route to go.... All the universities forget how things were done before 1982 and before all the frame 6-8 cattle arrived and when corn was .99 cents a bushel!

After crunching the numbers... calving at 3 is the most profitable for me!  Heifers are mature.... They look like cows!!! They act like cows. They do not suck down to nothing!!! Their calves are not crap quality, They breed back much quicker, They are less stressed! I have lowered my costs by not  buying feed for them in the winter!  I get huge compensatory gains in the spring when grass hits!!!
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Offline justintime

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Re: Shorty hf bulls
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2010, 12:21:11 PM »
guys

To get truely calving ease bulls that have at least some consistancy they MUST possess certian qualities!

 They must be at least 3 generations linebred and selected for traits that lend themselves to CE. Crossbred cattle should not be linebred! its a waste of time.

CE bulls should be way under breed average for frame score.  for shorthorns I think the bull should be under frame 5!  

Calving Ease bulls MUST be masculine!!! long necked steery lookig bulls with  average masculinity will not work for CE..They will produce some neat steers but not bulls! and not small babies!!!




I have been fortunate to have used 3 sires that were true calving ease sires. By this, I mean these sires were used for more than 3 breeding seasons in my herd, with no assists at birth other than an occasional malpresentation ( and there have been very few of these). I already know that some of you will not believe me when I say that two of these sires were descendants of Rodeo Drive. The other was a full Irish son of Highfield Irish Mist that we used successfully here for 5 years on our heifers with all unassisted births.( I have posted his picture as well)I totally disagree with sjcattleco in that a calving ease sire has to be under a 5 frame. The sires I consider to be calving ease sires are moderate framed but were all definitely more than 5 frame bulls.

Shadybrook Optimum 75F was bred here, and he was one of the best calving ease sires I have ever used. He was also homozygous polled and I sold every calf ( or retained in my herd)I had off him for breeding purposes..., every bull calf and every heifer calf. Optimum had some performance as well and was the top gaining bull at the Quebec Bull Test where he was performance tested and this was over all breeds. Semex International purchased Optimum and he was marketed all over the world. I have attached a picture of Optimum. Both the sire and grand sire of Optimum were super easy calving sires as well. His grand sire was a Rodeo Drive son I purchased from Green Ridge in Missouri named GR Rodeo 4000. He was bred by Whitestone- Krebs when they were running some Shorthorn cows along with their Angus. He was a true calving ease sire.

I do not think you have to use a  so called " dink" to get calving ease. The calving ease sires are few and far between but they are out there. Take a look at the Diamond Prophecy thread and you will see a very good calving ease sire that is definitely NOT a less than 5 frame. Okotoks says he is probably a 6 or 6+ and he is a super easy calving sire that probably weighs in excess of 2300 lbs in breeding condition. Coyote's Muridale Buster( also pictured) and Muridale Buster 2nd are also both extremely easy calving sires. Both these sires were considered moderate framed but they were NOT less than 5 frame bulls.  There are several other similar sires.

We have had this discussion on here many times, but I am a firm believer that there is much more to calving ease than the size of the sire used. I think we need to start talking about calving ease more in terms of unassisted births rather than just birth weights.We need to start placing more emphasis on gestation length than we presently do. Our Mist's Return bull has the shortest gestation length of any sire we have ever used, which is the main reason he calved so easy. His sire, Highfield Irish Mist was also a short gestation sire, and we were surprised to find that Irish Mist calves averaged 13 days less gestation than our second Irish import, IDS Duke of Dublin. To me that is very significant. While we had no real calving issues with Duke, his calves were definitely larger at birth and we had to provide more management at calving time for them.  We have to also consider what we are developing when we select for low BW as there is lots of research that says that selecting low BW sires for more than a few generations has a direct correlation to smaller pelvic areas in their daughters. As I have stated many time before, probably this is another trait that is best in "optimum" amounts.

I am just like most other people in that I don't really like to have to assist females at calving time. I prefer to find a calf standing beside his mom nursing, and as I get older, I really dislike having to take my winter coat off to help a female calve. I just looked back at my calving book for 2010 and I had 147 calves born of which 4 were assisted at birth. Of these 2 were backwards calves and one was from a female I purchased that I found calving and had no idea of how long she had been calving. I decided to give it a pull and get it over. The fourth assist was a true hard calving, and I am not sure why this occurred. This was the 4th calf this female had had from the same sire. The first 3 were all born unassisted but she decided to have a monster calf this time. It was a hard pull, however I was absolutely shocked when this female was in heat 18 days following a hard pull. She did not get bred to this sire again! All in all, I do not think that 4 assists out of 147 calves is something that needs much correction.

I will agree that we need to moderate BWs, but I also believe we need to look at all factors in improving calving ease rather than just heading in the direction of small framed lower performing sires.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 12:34:30 PM by justintime »
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Offline DRB

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Re: Shorty hf bulls
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2010, 02:04:31 PM »
I like this thread   :)

JIT, I've used Optimum and really like the results.  On the frame score side, Optimum was listed as 5.5, Coyote has Muridale Buster 14k listed with a 57 1/2 in mature hip, so that has got to be very close to 5.0.  Judging by your excellent Mist Return bulls in the sale, he's got to be closer to 5 than 6 too.  Also the difference btw 4,5&6 frame is a total of 4" so really they aren't that far apart.

Maybe part of the point was that if you have smaller framed 5 and less 2year old heifers, it would be best to avoid trying the 6.0+ frame calving ease bull right?  If I had bigger framed 2yr old heifers, definitely give him a try.

By the way: Sue, is Captain available in Canada?

Just my thoughts.

Offline Okotoks

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Re: Shorty hf bulls
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2010, 02:35:18 PM »
All I am going to say is that AM is a calving ease bull here at my place!!!....I am sure there are a hand full of 100#ers out there and someone is pissed but They have a cow that goes back to Dreamboat or Rodeo Drive and they fed 12 lbs of grain right up to the hour before the cow calved and its the bulls fault for the big calf! This year I used  AM  on a big group of cows and I used a 3/4 brother that is even smaller framed and solid red on my bunch of heifers... Pretty much out of necessity.... Our cow herd is all bred so close that we don't get too many surprises any more.. I have a couple of cows that ALWAYS have bigger calves.. over 90# no matter what!

 Calving ease and management also go hand in hand.... Now that there are more people wanting to raise smaller framed cattle, they are not big enough to actually calve at 2 even if you feed them to the point of no profitability let alone losing money... If you want to calve these 5 ish frame 2 yr olds lowlines are the route to go.... All the universities forget how things were done before 1982 and before all the frame 6-8 cattle arrived and when corn was .99 cents a bushel!

After crunching the numbers... calving at 3 is the most profitable for me!  Heifers are mature.... They look like cows!!! They act like cows. They do not suck down to nothing!!! Their calves are not crap quality, They breed back much quicker, They are less stressed! I have lowered my costs by not  buying feed for them in the winter!  I get huge compensatory gains in the spring when grass hits!!!

First I want to say what an impressive bull American Muscle looks to be. A very attractive bull with that look that catches the eye.
In our operation we would never make it pencil out if we calved our heifers as three olds. It was very common in the sixties when everyone had smaller framed cattle to wait until they were three. The last time we did that was in 1970. The one cow we show at the top of our web site (Diamond Dottie 55G) calved at just over 21 months and that photo was taken when she was 25 months old. The heifer calf she raised as a two year old without creep was Diamond Dottie 52J. 52J sold that fall to Hugh Moore and Son, Illinois. Last year as ten year old 52J had a set of twins. 55G is raising another heifer this year at 13 years of age and we have put her into a flush program.
I agree with Justintime that calving ease is about more than a light birth weight. I think pelvic size is probably more important. We purchased two bulls from Eionmor and they had pelvic measurements listed in the sale catalogue. We used these as one of our selection criteria and the one bull Eionmor Ideal 61M is on the ASA 2010 Sire Summary as a trait leader for Calving Ease +7.2 DTRS +4.8 as well as birth weight at a minus 2.6. He was a frame 6.5 or 7 white bull that we sold to one of our commercial customers to cross on his black cows to get blue roans. Of course we should have kept him longer as his daughters are great producers. (I seem to have a lot of those should haves happening!)
As for line breeding it makes a lot of sense if you want to fix a trait. You can get calving ease with outcross selection as well. We need to keep performance and a multitude of other traits in mind as well.

Offline sue

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Re: Shorty hf bulls
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2010, 10:04:47 PM »
Captain is headed back to stud - they are capable for certification f.or Canadian export.
 we had alot of canadian interest after Denver last year. Lance wanted to wait - the initial investment was big for CV so they waited.... 
I am more then grateful and thank everyone for your purchases these last 2 quarters
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Everyone's agenda is a little different in SH world. Seems like "all of sudden" we have calving ease fixed? I am going to agree and disagree with a few posts. But leave by saying the operation(s) that never lost site of SHORTHORN  over the many years are  true calving ease, maternal and flesh easy. Yes, the list is longer - probably Rob Sneed, Lovings and Buster 14K are fair to include. I dont think RD is one on anyone's list for CE- Mike Dugdale used to say 140 was a "lite one"- that takes a several generation to wear off?




 

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