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Offline justintime

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Re: So... please tell me....
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2009, 08:38:14 PM »
I am glad to see many of the comments posted here. I am old enough to have seen many fads come and go, but this cool fronted ( aka Goose fronted, freaky fronted, etc etc etc) seems to be one fad that seems to make its way from one era to another. Maybe what it is called changes with time, but I think this concept has been around for a long time. I am certainly not opposed to females that are clean fronted ( or bulls for that matter) but at the same time, I truly believe there are limits to any trait where too much of a good thing can become a very bad thing.

I think I like many of the same things many of you do in regards to what a female or male should look like in regards to their front ends. What concerns me sometimes, is how much importance some judges seem to put on this trait. That is the real reason I am asking these questions, as I am not 100% convinced in my own mind if this cool fronted ( call it by whatever term you want to) has as much economical importance in any part of the industry, whether it be in the seed stock, commercial, or clubby parts, as is being placed on it. As I have mentioned on here before, I am convinced many people confuse femininity with fraility. I am afraid that many of these longer necked, clean fronted females are not much earthly good after their show halter is removed for the last time. This could lead to another discussion.... that being what is the definition of a feminine female. Is it defined by a certain look, or should femininity refer more to the production of a female. By this I mean is a 12 year old cow that has had 10 live calves all born within a few weeks of each other, every year, a feminine female .... no matter what she looks like? Or is femininity much more than this?   More food for thought....
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Offline sue

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Re: So... please tell me....
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2009, 08:59:55 PM »
Let's pick on Salute.
 Do you suppose his mama would be pulling grass with her own teeth to this day or even as a 3 year old ??? Or did TYPe and kind get in the way of her success- like show ring success.
 Confident cattle breeders would look at a  REAl track record, epds, longevity, etc. Where does this Cool thing start and stop???  Is it a front end thing... really or just one flollowing another.
 Cool fronted, square hipped and wide tracking - let's not foget good haired. Please let's linebreed more of the same...cuz I am not a breeder, but just a mulitplier. I doubt this ends at the front end \\\


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Offline justintime

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Re: So... please tell me....
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2009, 09:55:07 PM »
Sue, I do not think that I was wanting to refer to any particular sire or any particular line of cattle in any breed when I started this discussion.  Salute has little to do with this topic in my opinion. Now that you have mentioned Salute I will say that I have had no issues with my Salute sired cattle. All have been born unassisted with good BWs and mine have all been structurally sound. In fact, I am so impressed with my Salute first calf heifers that I purchased a couple more this fall. Maybe I have been very lucky, but my Salute sired cattle have been more functional and had lower BWs than some of ones I have had from some other so called purebred sires.

This discussion was intended to be a general discussion on these terms rather than particular bulls/ bloodlines.
Experience is what you get when you don't have it when you need it.

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Offline ROAD WARRIOR

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Re: So... please tell me....
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2009, 10:17:46 PM »
JIT - excellent food for thought. I think there is a difference between femininity and maternalitity (is that a word?) To me femininity is more of a phenotypical trait. A cow doesn't have to be feminine to be maternal, there are many sloppy, course made, basically ugly cows for lack of a better term in production all around the world. They breed back year after year and likely wean off big old ugly calves that make their mark when they cross the scale at sale time. I don't consider this type of cow to be feminine as they sometimes resemble their male counterparts more closely than some of their female counterparts. A good friend of mine has a herd of Fleckvieh's that is a perfect example of this. They are big, sloppily made cows that raise some big calves every year. In comparison my cows look like beauty contestants when compared to his. He is happy with his cows and I am happy with mine and in spite of our differing oppinions on the ideal cow we have remained good friends for years. Just more rambleing from RW
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Offline knabe

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Re: So... please tell me....
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2009, 10:19:48 AM »
Or is femininity much more than this?   More food for thought....

much less.  and she would have less of a food production record statistically.

to me, the show industry suffers from the same problem thoroughbreds do when they shifted from mature races to the futurity, ie kentucky derby as the most lucrative.  people lost sight and the need for the look of mature adults with secondary sexual characteristics.

Offline Cattledog

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Re: So... please tell me....
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2009, 11:29:12 AM »

 What concerns me sometimes, is how much importance some judges seem to put on this trait.


I completely agree with you on this.  I was beat in class this summer at a show that I will leave un-named as well as the judge.  It was a big show and really the only competition that we had was one other heifer.  We were pulled in second and I waited for the reasons.  He talked how the heifer that won easily had the class as she was really clean through her front end.  He then said that our heifer had superior thickness, volume, walked out with a more fluid stride but was just a little plainer throughout her shoulder.  My heifer had just a tick of brisket and had been called nice fronted all summer. 

I started watching more of the show after we were knocked out.  He stuck to his guns.  Consistently found the nicest fronted female in almost every class, sacrificing anything he could to get it.  At the end of the day I wasn't really that upset.  The guy picked the kind of cattle that he liked and if I went by his criteria I would have ended up picking the same calves as well.

I guess the way I look at front ends is that I don't mind a little bit of brisket as long as they don't have a real fat neck.  I will also sacrifice a little front end for some volume and natural thickness.
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Offline Jill

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Re: So... please tell me....
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2009, 11:40:34 AM »
There are exceptions to this rule, but generally speaking if you have a heifer with a lot of volume and thickness they will have at least some front on them, the 2 go together.

Offline Cattledog

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Re: So... please tell me....
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2009, 11:49:14 AM »
There are exceptions to this rule, but generally speaking if you have a heifer with a lot of volume and thickness they will have at least some front on them, the 2 go together.

I totally agree.  That's why I don't mind sacrificing a little.
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Offline kanshow

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Re: So... please tell me....
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2009, 04:42:17 PM »
I have also noticed that a lot of the simmi females that go on to develop into big broody deep bodied cows will carry a touch of extra leather up front..    A lot of these females seem to grow into the leather, meaning that they will show more leather at say 6 - 8 months than they do after 12 - 18 months.    Also note, I said a little extra leather not a ton of extra leather.        
« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 06:45:09 PM by kanshow »

Offline simtal

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Re: So... please tell me....
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2009, 06:20:11 PM »
heifers need to look like females

bulls need to look like bulls
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Offline ELBEE

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Re: So... please tell me....
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2009, 06:01:09 AM »
I have to say, a well prepared Brisket is one of my favorite cutts, and now that's cool! <cowboy>
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Offline aj

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Re: So... please tell me....
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2009, 08:24:11 AM »
To me...a shorter neck means fleshing ability.....shorter side means fleshing ability.....a little front means fleshing ability. I think in the Shorthorn deal we have done so much right but in the show ring such goofy stuff like a chase for cool fronts undoes everything  else. In my opinion the horns need to improve fleshing ability, reduce bwt's, and clean up defects. As far as clean fronts are concerned the guy who talked about the feedlot deal makes the most since. A certain amount of waste occurs in the brisket on full feed.  In a sand and sawdust nutritional scenario a brisket could store reserves. Hunsley and other leaders of the industry pushed us away form the wasty fat cattle but now I think we need to go back that way a little bit. Very few showring people listen for what the commercial people want so I think these fads will occur. How much energy has been spent breeding for black hides and clean fronts? Talk about a fad. 20 years ago the the industry averaged 70% choice in the feedlots. We went on a Kamakaze chase of black hided exotic cattle. Now the industries average is 50% choice. What amazes me is how good people feel about black cattle and what a great thing the black hided deal was. I think this is a commercial fad that I don't understand.
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Offline mooch

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Re: So... please tell me....
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2009, 08:41:32 AM »
I don't think the push for black hides had anything to do with the decline in choice fed cattle. The economics of feedlot operation ie: least cost rations and the better acceptance of select grade cattle created that trend. It cost more to feed corn in the southern plaines so the cattle are not on it as long as in "the old days". The giant "super center" made consumers not care about choice ,only cheap.

Offline aj

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Re: So... please tell me....
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2009, 08:54:25 AM »
Mooch there is alot of merit to what you said. However ...I know that a Texas university did a non-biased test on fat cattle harvest results. In there testing, the black hided cattle graded identically to the "colored cattle". Its not published yet. So what is the virtue of black hides if it doesn't equate to grading choice. And don't get me wrong...I am amazed at what the Angus breeds have done in improving carcass traits.
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Offline knabe

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Re: So... please tell me....
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2009, 09:09:20 AM »
20 years ago the the industry averaged 70% choice in the feedlots.

as fast food and demand for low quality grades became 50% of the market or more, it was only natural there would be less demand for converting corn into fat.  the market responded to low cost producers.

 

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