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Offline JbarL

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Some things never change..........
« on: July 02, 2007, 08:51:13 PM »
specifically the temp of air/water under the ground....capturing this therma wonder is not as unobtainable as one may think.....i rembember years ago about a 6 or 8 in pipe sticking out of the wall in my granddads basement..covered with mesh screen and a great looking place to tell your young nephew you were going to stick his hand in ...... :D   actually what is was was about a 50 ft piece of pipe that ran out to the creek bank buried under the ground and the air was " cool " in the  summer and " warm" in the winter. that entered.....with the ambient temp at about 70 degrees under ground....water has too much friction loses through pumps, fans and radiators to make a difference in the cold but air on the other hand has the ability to be circulated  actually  recirculated like the ac/  recec button on your car ac.....the math works out very well especially if one has 3 phase power availible for the fan/blower......  basically the correct  length x diamater to obtain  the cmf needed ( in blade width to hp ration) to "fill the area" with fresh say 78/ 80 degree ( after loses).....air   which would  feel pretty good in the northern winters.....the math seems to work even with 220 volt applications as far as operationg costs go....thinking about trying it on a 24 x 14 area that is already insulated with 2 stalls....would love to get the math to work with a wind vane for the drive but cant find the torque....was wondering if anyone has experminited with this or not ...or if anyone in the north west area or anyone useing vanes can give me any direction on windvane powertrains?     thanks  jbarl

Offline red

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Re: Some things never change..........
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2007, 06:33:49 AM »
Check w/ some Amish people. They do a lot w/ the wind & things like that.

Red
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but most succeed because they are determined to."
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Offline OH Breeder

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Re: Some things never change..........
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2007, 07:44:37 AM »
GEO THERMO COOLING/Heating
It is becoming more popular in the new homes in our area as folks look for GREEN alternatives
Life is too short....don't sweat the small stuff.

Offline red

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Re: Some things never change..........
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2007, 07:46:10 AM »
I guess, I wasn't reading close enough. We have that here in our house. Actually great on the heating bills & electricity. Just need land to put in the loop.

Red
"People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care"
" Some succeed because they are destined to,
but most succeed because they are determined to."
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Offline knabe

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Re: Some things never change..........
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2007, 10:30:28 AM »
red is right on the land.  my cousin put geothermal in.  he has over 600 feet of pipe buried something like 4-6 feet deep.  some systems are filled with air, and you have to remove the moisture, or filled with liquid.  they work well in climates where you have both hot summers and cold winters as the payoff is too long for places like CA, that just have one extreme, like hot summers.  in CA, people are really starting to pay attention to overhangs and orienatation to the sun.  i put a shade on the back porch which shaded the southside of the garage and west side of the house and lowered in house temps by 7 degrees in the summer.  people are also starting to put heat sinks such as tile floors in the rooms with the overhangs to capture the sun in the winter and hold heat to release it at night.  it is unbelieveable how easy passive heating and cooling works if designed correctly.  another thing that works well is to plant deciduous trees on the south side of the house so it shades both the ground and the house in the summer, and in the winter when the leaves are gone, it allows the sun through.  plant evergreens on the north side.
"The generation that told us to question authority, has now become the Authority we cannot question!"

Offline JbarL

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Re: Some things never change..........
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2007, 12:12:47 PM »
if you exchange the "loop" that red was referring to a "vessel" per say you get the same sq area and less hp needed to move the air through the larger area...just as shade/ window/ and ventilation placement works for your home as knabe has noted
for the cool side of the process......if ground water was available to use a "loop" to go around your underground vessel..then that would help maintain the "cool" side ( but costs explode)....what i am looking for here is basically 33 degrees....enough to keep the stock comfy and an added bonus would be keeping supply water from freezing w/o any heat tape or other energy consuming devices.....i spoke with a kid from the olentangy ( ohio ) school district over the weekend and he is considering the geothermal area as a science fair project ( not to mention helping me with some of the algebraic conversions )...he is looking more at the "green" and alt energy categories.( for homes and businesses)..but i believe the more practical applications are in the Ag industry....at  least for now.......i  think that a project within the "Ag" category
for school /FHA/ ect is where the most "real" results  can be utilized ....and praticial applications are affordable and available to folks now......i think it would be a great project ......you can actually simulate the gains/losses with about a 6 ft sq area of ground and 12 volt computer fan(s) and 1/2 to 1 in plastic pipe with a simple " scaled"  barn........the true test to the scale of course would have to be carried out over time....and the true results would lie in the up coming ambient temp changes in the fall through winter......and that would give "real" data for the upcoming school year...wish i would have thought of it 30 years ago....would have been much more enjoyable( and alot less stinky) than my "hoof research"
( pewwwwww)  and of course fuel was .33 a gallon then, and a simple heater did the trick .      thanks jbarl

Offline knabe

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Re: Some things never change..........
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2007, 01:31:59 PM »
speaking of windpower, this is a classic. it's a comedy sketch that the us navy put on in the 60's about a farting contest pitting paul boomer against lord windshear.  it's called The Crepitation Contest

http://www.vulgarwind.com/crep.html

JbarL, don't know if this is appropriate for what you are doing, but i saw these folks,   http://www.windsave.com/   and many other similar "consumer" type wind power people last winter at a green fair in san jose CA.  you could install them in series.  some of the fans are kind of scary how fast they spin for birds, but if they selectively went after pigeons, english sparrows and starlings, that would be ok.  there are many consumer companies for wind power with similar costs to solar.  of course you need wind.   oklahoma city is the windiest city in the US, not chicago, somewhere around 12mph, chicago slightly lower.  people are installing them near me in homes because we have small microclimates where wind goes through canyons at a pretty good clip, 25-30 for about 2-4 hours/day when temp changes.  after that, your're on the grid unless you fork over the big bucks for batteries, which are expensive and a pain to maintain and recycle.
"The generation that told us to question authority, has now become the Authority we cannot question!"

Offline JbarL

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Re: Some things never change..........
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2007, 03:07:13 PM »
thanks for the site.....the wind option was really the extreeme dream...no utility costs at all....actually while i had the calculator out i tried to use the mechanical turn speed ( thru a 60:1 gear reduction box )  to turn a pulleye/belt/blade(squirl cage) cirulator.....i can sure get the speed but no torque..actually lost all my gains in the gear box.......i'm  gonna find something to do with that piece  yet *S*S*S*S   it came out of an old  local bakery when it closed....and always figured if nothin else i'd use it for my ski lift in aspen when i built it as soon as i retired  S*S*S*S*S    florida is full  affordabel/avaliable of 3 phase 220 but ohio dont seem to want to help out a bit....not sure about about  the northwest???    thanks  jbarl

 

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