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Offline Redwine Cattle

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Steer show classifications...is it time to change?
« on: March 18, 2015, 11:16:05 PM »
Is it time to change the way we classify cattle for steer shows?

Does it make anyone else mad when you see the Champion Simmental steer put on blogs immediately after the show with sires of Man Among Boys or Heat Wave? Or a champion shorthorn steer sired by MAB out of an SimAngus cow?

Is it not a huge slap in the face to the judges who classify these steers then have it thrown in their face the second they walk out of the ring? Can it not be changed? Why would breeders of legit registered cattle not get together to try and fight this?

I don't have a dog in the fight, my daughter is almost 2 years old, we obviously don't show, but I find myself getting increasingly agitated with us. Is it not cheating? Taking an animal that is not a specific breed and presenting it as such is a lie right? How are we convincing ourselves that this is morally the right thing to do, much less teach our kids it's ok to do?

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Offline OH Breeder

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Re: Steer show classifications...is it time to change?
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2015, 11:40:16 PM »
I don't have a dog in this fight either, but I find the whole classification system odd. In our area, either you have papers or you show crossbred. It is pretty simple. It is what it is. I don't see how an animal that is registered angus can't classify as an angus? BUT with any change people resist. Others more than some because....that's the way its always been. It doesn't make it right at all. I am just trying to figure out why they do it? Who does it benefit? I would be frustrated if I were a breeder and I couldn't get a registered animal in a "class" because it was too good for that breed?
Life is too short....don't sweat the small stuff.

Offline ifinditfunny

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Re: Steer show classifications...is it time to change?
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2015, 11:47:01 PM »
I'll be honest I think there's less lying involved with the classification system as opposed to papers. I know a shorthorn steer that was out of monopoly that did alot of winning up north that was "papered" as purebred.  With the classification system the judges know and the classifiers know that they might or might not be the actual breed they are being represented as but do they fit the predetermined guidelines as to what's acceptable. I would rather show under the claasification system every time when compared to papers.

Offline Redwine Cattle

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Re: Steer show classifications...is it time to change?
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2015, 11:53:19 PM »
I'll be honest I think there's less lying involved with the classification system as opposed to papers. I know a shorthorn steer that was out of monopoly that did alot of winning up north that was "papered" as purebred.  With the classification system the judges know and the classifiers know that they might or might not be the actual breed they are being represented as but do they fit the predetermined guidelines as to what's acceptable. I would rather show under the claasification system every time when compared to papers.

I respect your opinion, but I can't see how knowing of 1 steer up north that had immoral breeders and owners makes that an inferior system compared to a system that everyone knows everyone else is lying.
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity"       ~Seneca

Offline ifinditfunny

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Re: Steer show classifications...is it time to change?
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2015, 11:59:15 PM »
We might have to agree to disagree but how is it lying when the rules say you have to meet these visual criteria to show as such and such. It doesn't say you have to be a such and such.  It says you have to appear as a such and such. Everyone knows it's part of the game.  The monoply story was one of MANY I could go into.

Offline Redwine Cattle

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Re: Steer show classifications...is it time to change?
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2015, 12:46:44 AM »
I see your point, and frankly I think many people completely agree with you, and that's fine, like I said, I personally have nothing at stake here. I just look at it differently I guess.

To me it's like this. When you are filling out a steer card and it asks for breed, It's asking for the actual breed of the animal, not what it may or may not look like. In my opinion they aren't asking you to meet a visual criteria to show as such and such, instead of actually being such and such.  They are asking for and assuming that the simmental calves will be simmental, the shorthorns will be shorthorns and they will use certain visual criteria to confirm that breed.

If it is just a visual hair color contest and has nothing to do with actual breeds of animals, why even have breeds broken out within a show? Just throw them all in together, of course then the rules would state that in order to be eligible the animal needs to look like a bovine, not actually be bovine.
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Offline blackdirt cowboy

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Re: Steer show classifications...is it time to change?
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2015, 06:30:19 AM »
I raise registered brangus, and the system we have is very very frustrating to me. As a kid showing, we were required to have papers and classify as well. The paper deal was a joke. All of the counterfeit brangus came along with counterfeit papers. We just bred our cattle better and were competitive with the crossed up cattle. We never won our breed, but we won our class consistently. I still joke and say we had the best "Brangus" at the show, he may not have been champion, but he was the best one there. Now that my kids are showing, it's gotten so bad that a purebred Brangus won't compete. I don't know what the answer is, because people are always going to find and exploit a loophole in the rules. I do think that when we were required to have papers, the problem didn't seem quite as bad. The only sure fire way I see to clean it up is to require papers and check parentage through DNA testing, whether you only check champion and reserve, or even check all the cattle that make the sale.  This would be somewhat costly, and probably would fall on the breed associations to take care of. I just don't think the breed association really care all that mch about the steer shows to worry about it.

Offline cowpoke

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Re: Steer show classifications...is it time to change?
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2015, 07:53:36 AM »
Breeds are important but at most[ but not all shows ] the Grand Champion  usually comes from the X-bred division.In able to win you have to get in the final drive and by being a breed steer or heifer you are in contention.With Monopolys dominance many cattle are similar and many times color is main criteria in classification.Iowa requires papers and at one time Wisc. rules stated 3/4 blood.What made some of the purebred breeds better was an open herd book.The Sim helped the Hereford,Maine helped Shorthorn,and Freisian helped Angus whether we want to believe it or not.

Offline cowboy_nyk

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Re: Steer show classifications...is it time to change?
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2015, 07:57:51 AM »
Quote
The only sure fire way I see to clean it up is to require papers and check parentage through DNA testing, whether you only check champion and reserve, or even check all the cattle that make the sale.

If you were to check Grand and Reserve consistently and had stiff penalties for a failing test (one year ban for first offence), the top dogs would quit lying real quick. 

These sorts of things are always a trickle down effect. Everybody starts stretching the truth to try and compete with the guy who outright lies and everything turns into a mess.  If you get rid of the worst offenders, the average joe will quickly adjust to the new rules I would think.

Offline Limiman12

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Re: Steer show classifications...is it time to change?
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2015, 08:41:08 AM »
^^^^^. What he said.    Not in the show ring with my kids yet.....  Will probably never be at the level we are trying to get into a champions drive at Iowa State fair wi a steer, maybe with a heifer if we are lucky, but I think it ought to be at least 50% the breed it says it is.....  Either sired by a purebred, out of a pure bred or out of two high percentage crosses.....
Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work as hard.      Tim Tebow

Offline kanshow

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Re: Steer show classifications...is it time to change?
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2015, 09:25:56 AM »
I guess I don't see the problem.   Fortunately (or unfortunately) we don't have to classify here.  Steers have to have papers..    And a Sim steer can be sired by MAB, Monopoly, HW, pick any clubbie bull... as long as the cow is a registered simmental.   Technically she should be a PB making the steer 50% but I know many are not .. and there are many 3/8 showing with papers that have 3/8 SM right on them.   I know many of the other breeds are the same way.  So if you want to make a rule to exclude those cattle from the breed classes, you would need to put it in the rules that the calf MUST be 50% and above or whatever % you think is right.   And sure a DNA test of the winner might make some more honest...    I actually would have a bigger issue with the Hereford classified steers..   knowing that they are required to be 100% on a papered show.

Offline zac_norwood

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Re: Steer show classifications...is it time to change?
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2015, 09:50:35 AM »
In arkansas all shows are just classified by weight. Seems to be the easiest thing to do...

Offline Limiman12

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Re: Steer show classifications...is it time to change?
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2015, 11:03:25 AM »
Not having to prove it is the breed it is competing as takes away the reason for the breed divisions.
Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work as hard.      Tim Tebow

Offline ifinditfunny

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Re: Steer show classifications...is it time to change?
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2015, 11:05:22 AM »
I can understand why a PB breeder might be aggravated by the classification system, but it actually takes all the lying out of it. If you read the rules at Texas majors it lists sets of visual characteristics that cattle must meet to be eligible to show in that breed. Nowhere does it say animal needs to be PB.  This eliminates all lying. You teach your kids. These are the rules, we find steers that meet these visual characteristics and show them under said breed.  We have shown under all different scenarios and truly feel this is the most honest way to do it.

Offline cbcr

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Re: Steer show classifications...is it time to change?
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2015, 11:22:54 AM »
With seeing this post, and we have seen and heard plenty about the issue with how the classification works (or does not work) at the shows. 

We have had contact with some of the livestock managers.  Many seem of the opinion that their system works. But complaints and comments from exhibitors, to us says differently.  They don't seem to think that any changes need to be made.  However, they did say that as a group exhibitors can do something.

With the Composite Beef Cattle Registry www.compositebeef.com we could offer the following possible solution.

We can register steers, and our papers provide a 4 generation pedigree, the breed composition and percentages along with several ways to cross reference an animal and one of them being RFID tags.  Also tattoos, brands can also be used.

The 840 RFID tags are tamper evident so once they are put into an animal they cannot be removed and used on another animal.  Also, one thing that most of the show livestock managers mentioned was to really prove parentage the animals really would need to be parentage verified.  With this parentage verification it could be put into a database that could be accessed and also the file or test number would also be documented on the registration papers.

We use GeneSeek for our DNA test.  The cost for parentage is $15 per animal.  To register a steer with us is $10.

If their is interest in something like this, for registering steers only, of the $10 we would put $5 into a futurity situation and every steer that is registered with us would be eligible to participate.  How it would work is depending on the type of show: local show, regional show, district show, state show and on up to a National show, points would be awarded.  On smaller shows, a first place would be worth say 5 points, and at a National show first place would be worth 25 points.  Also on smaller shows the first 5 animals in the class would receive points 5,4,3,2,1.  Maybe as the shows are of more importance, the points and number of places awarded points would increase as well.  At the end of the year, all points earned would be added up and then divided into the futurity fund to see what the value of each point is worth.

If the futurity fund could also grow, maybe do an 80% or 90% payback and let the rest earn interest for the following years.

This is something we would be willing to do and one thing we would do is of those interested, have a committee to somewhat oversee such a program.

Just an idea!

 

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