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Offline twistedhshowstock

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2012, 09:35:26 PM »
Sale Catalog pdf http://www.shorthorncountry.net/image/2012/TexasStateSale/2012TexasCatalog.pdf
I dont see where the cattle were marketed as being TH free. Ahlschwede Shorthorns is pretty know for their double stuff bulls, which  pretty much to me is associated with TH carriers but also good looking steers.


My understanding of the genetic deffect disclaimer is that the American Shorthorn Association makes no guarantees on genetic defect status of an animal unless it has been tested and noted in their registry, at which point it will show on their papers.  The Breeding Guarantee I believe is like most sales, if an animal is sold in a sale for breeding purposes then the animal is guaranteed as sound to breed.  If the animal for some reason will not breed, i.e. is sterile etc, and it is something that was wrong at the time of the sale then the purchaser is entitled to a full refund.

I could be wrong on this, but this is my understanding.  Many associations make a list of sale terms etc that are inforced at all breed association shows, many breeders use the same guidlines for their shows, thus in their catalogs just put that they follow the associations terms to keep them from havin to spell out all of the terms of sale themselves.  Much like organizations and clubs stating in their bylaws  that they follow Robert's Rules of Order instead of having to spell out each piece of parliminary procedure in their own by laws.

Offline cpubarn

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2012, 07:14:18 AM »
Ryan,

They look like good deep growthy heifers to me.  Have them tested and have fun!  There are so many different types of cattle for different types of people...

I delieve (from too much time on this board) that Oakview and JIT have lots of experience with shorthorns, so watch the improver genetics a little, and have fun!

Are things looking a little greener in tx now???  Down the road, post a pic of their calves when they have them....

Mark

Offline oakview

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2012, 11:06:28 AM »
Some of you are more direct, or less tactful than I!  I have heard from very reliable sources that several of the Irish bulls do not "match" to their pedigree.  I am politely trying to say that I am being very cautious with anything with Improver in it because I do not like to be disappointed, or worse, mad when things don't work out like I want them to.  I just looked at several calves out of my last year's investment in a new herd bull.  A good friend of mine liked the bull and brought up 10-12 cows to breed to him.  Great.  I got a call 2 weeks ago from him and he has several deformed calves.  Yes, they're out of my bull.  He's TH and PHA free.  But, evidently he carries the bad foot/ankle gene, whatever it is.  I have had just one calf out of the bull so far, it is perfectly normal.  His mother is Improver free.  However, my friend has many cows with Double Stuff, thus Improver, genetics and 2 of his calves are 'goofy.'  I have pictures.  It makes me sick to my stomach for both of us.  This has all been reported to the ASA and Dr. Beever.  We're going to do everything we can to help at least identify what's going on, if not help eliminate it.  I just returned to my office from delivering the bull to Tama Livestock Market.  He's an outstanding bull.  I feel sick to my stomach again, but at least this will be the end of it for me.  I don't need the tax write off, but it looks like I'm going to get it again.  The breeder of this bull is one of my best friends in the Shorthorn business.  There is no doubt in my mind that he had absolutely no responsibility or knowledge of this problem.  However, somewhere along the line, somebody has known something and didn't tell.  That person is not going to be me. 

Offline jaimiediamond

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2012, 12:21:18 PM »
There's a substantial number of Shorthorn breeders than have stock going back to the Improver lines.  I just did a search and found a large number of the prominent breeders are still using animals with Improver.  Bowman, Saskvalley (Huberdale Mastercharge), Shome, Duis, WHR, Steinke, Matlock(Paramount14P), Handu, Elbee, Vaith Cattle, Jordan Acres... and thats just the breeder that have spent some loot on ad words and are now on the first 2 pages of google.   So all these breeders 'potentially' have th running through their herds?



I did the same search as you and thought I would post the first breeder that popped up for me.  If you scroll down on the page posted they are clear on their TH views.  Regarding TH status it really depends on the honesty of all people involved. Really nice heifers good luck with them.

http://www.matlockshorthorns.com/sales.html

Offline oakview

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2012, 12:29:52 PM »
You are correct.  You will be hard pressed to find herds that don't have Improver somewhere in their pedigrees.  However, most of the herds you mentioned and many, many others are using animals that are TH free.  To the best of my knowledge, that means that the animal that has been TH tested negative does not have that gene and thus cannot pass it on.  The defect I am referring to is showing up in cattle with Improver genetics and is different.  For examples, look under the fairly recent thread about a potential new genetic defect in Shorthorns.  There are photos.  My bull that is siring this defect is TH free.  I have photos of his calves and they are eerily similar to the photos in the thread.  I had a TH calf about 15 years ago.  The calves with the foot/ankle defect are not even remotely close in appearance.  I have a friend that had a calf with this foot/ankle defect.  The calf is sired by a TH free tested bull, a son of Improver, and the dam traces back to Improver in the 5th generation.  Are all afflicted animals double Improver descndants?  I don't know.  All of the ones I have personal knowldedge of, though, have Improver as the common denominator on both sides of the pedigree.  I don't know enough about genetics to say exactly how this defect is passed on.  If it behaves like most of the defects I am familiar with, such as TH and PHA, then the gene has to be in both parents.  There might be such a thing that this defect behaves differently.  There is perhaps a chance that there are envirnmental factors.  However, in my mind I have reached the conclusion that I don't want to take the chance of adding more of this defect to my herd or the cattle industry.  If I'm proven wrong, then I guess I'll always wish I hadn't sold my bull.

Online Doc

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2012, 05:51:57 PM »

 In what delusional state are  people in where they think its OK to sell/promote animals that could potentially carry genetic defects w/o testing them?? 

How easy would it be for the association to say, "any animals tracing back to a known carrier must be tested unless proven clean by pedigree(sire/dam tested clean) in order to obtain registration" ???

Like I said, I'll have them tested and if they're clean, they're good bc they really are great looking heifers- if they're dirty, I already have 2 people in line wanting to buy em. 

You somewhat answered your own question. As long as people are out there willing to buy them even if they are carriers, then some people won't ever make the effort to or spend the money to have them tested. Some people will gamble. I did a few years ago when I bought a Dble.Vsn dtr of CF Roan Sue & she wasn't tested. I got lucky & she was clean , both ways.
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong
enough to take everything you have.   -- Thomas Jefferson

Offline ELBEE

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2012, 11:44:53 AM »
There's a substantial number of Shorthorn breeders than have stock going back to the Improver lines.  I just did a search and found a large number of the prominent breeders are still using animals with Improver.  Bowman, Saskvalley (Huberdale Mastercharge), Shome, Duis, WHR, Steinke, Matlock(Paramount14P), Handu, Elbee, Vaith Cattle, Jordan Acres... and thats just the breeder that have spent some loot on ad words and are now on the first 2 pages of google.   So all these breeders 'potentially' have th running through their herds?


Deerpark Improver 3rd, and Deerpark Improver have no genetic link. Only thing in common, they were both exported from Ireland and share space on a "Paper". Sadly we probably won't ever know how the Irish cattle fit together. 
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Offline ELBEE

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2012, 12:37:19 PM »


Isn't Improver the sire of Improver 3rd???
[/quote]

Not according to DNA!
"My father and grandfather were great men among men, but first and foremost, men of God. I ask that God give me the power of the Holy Spirit through His Son Jesus Christ to be like them."  Lee Bigham

Offline oakview

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Re: Texas State Shorthorn sale
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2012, 01:59:59 PM »
Nice to hear verification of what I've been hearing for a while.  I know Improver 3rd's previous owner is glad to know he's not an Improver, at least considering TH, etc.  I doubt if we'll ever really know what several of those bulls are out of.  I still get a chuckle when people claim to have asterisk free cattle that trace to empty pedigrees. 

 

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