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Offline itk

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TH and phenotype
« on: March 10, 2008, 10:06:38 AM »
I forgot to mention that I learned a way to identify carriers of TH this weekend and it had nothing to do with their legs but their head. When we unloaded cows Brain Kohlstaedt was able to tell which were THC and THF by looking at the bump that goes down the middle of their head that starts at the poll. He only missed one cow that tested THC that he called THF. He said if this bump goes down like four inches they are THC and if not they are THF. I don't know if there is any fact or science to back this up but in my isolated incident there was enough of a correlation for it to be more then just chance.
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Offline Dusty

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Re: TH and phenotype
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2008, 10:27:11 AM »
Haven't heard that one yet...I usually just go by their pedigree and if they're good, they're a carrier.
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Offline red

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Re: TH and phenotype
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2008, 10:32:38 AM »
Im noticed w/ my PHAC she had more of a short rounder head. Her full sister who is clean had a narrower head. Also the carrier is more steery looking.

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Online knabe

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Re: TH and phenotype
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2008, 11:44:30 AM »
ok, we need pictures on this one as i don't have any carrier cattle, pha or th. 

the most cited phenotype for pha "in a positive" way, is upper and fore spring of rib.  hopefully this is due to another snp in the gene rather than the one that truncates the protein and is desirable in isolation from PHA.  justintime has a couple of cows with great spring of rib there, without pha.

remember, many genes are expressed in different tissues at different stages of development and will not always express in exactly the same quantity. 

starting poking around in the th gene and found that a translocation break point has been found in one human within an intron of a gene(i think it's the TH gene in human). introns are splice out, and the exons are used to transcribe and translate into protein.  i find this incredible, as crossover point is capable of occuring within a gene on the genomic scale.  i'm assuming this is not good.  if this were to occur a lot, this would indicate not much selective pressure.  i could be wrong, and crossovers occur all over the place with no protection mechanism within genes.  some people are studying this big time in corn with very powerful microscopes which look at stained chromosomes and known crossover points.  haven't kept up with this research in over 15 years.  in some respects, this is sort of a roundabout way of explaining why i think the pha gene is important, and that fullblood carriers may have some variation within the gene that may be beneficial in their PHAF allele and will be lost.  it's also why probably why paramount was considered inconsistent, in addition to the PHAC gene causing inconsistency in observed herds trying to use him on a variety of cows.  this is the only reason i would use a carrier, and i would find the "perfect" set of say 5 free cows and flush them all to at least 3 carriers i can think of, all full bloods, their names being paramount, universe 15, dalton.  telos and xxcc could think of some others under this scenario.  telos has not observed any carrier bulls out of i think dalton yet.  anyone know of one?  i remember thinking about this, but never had the info or the courage to just declare it.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2008, 12:29:06 PM by knabe »

Offline justintime

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Re: TH and phenotype
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2008, 12:16:50 PM »
I do agree that most TH carriers have this had shape that Brian Kolstaedt mentioned to you. I have noticed this as well, but I have seen a few animals that have fooled me. I had one female that had Improver 8 generations in the background of the pedigree that I was certain was clean as I could not see this ridge on her head. She turned out to be a carrier and is now a recip in my herd. As I have mentioned on here before, I really do not agree with people messing around with carriers in their breeding program, unless they are 100 % certain that no animal they produce that is a carrier will ever make it's way into a commercial operation... and that is very hard to do.
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Offline Zach

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Re: TH and phenotype
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2008, 01:54:48 PM »
if this is true, my market heifer is THC, and she has the phenotype to go with it, muscular and hairy :D
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Offline kane1598

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Re: TH and phenotype
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2008, 02:10:38 PM »
I believe it.  I have had four Heatseeker steers over the years and all of them had that odd head and kept there hair all summer.  Coincidence?

Offline itk

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Re: TH and phenotype
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2008, 02:16:02 PM »
I believe this head thing is a better indication then leg set or hair. The frailest made, lightest muscled cow we sold Brain called a THC without hesitation because of the bump on her head and he was right.
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Offline NHR

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Re: TH and phenotype
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2008, 02:21:35 PM »
I dont know about this bump thing. We had a TH Carrier cow (found out the hard way) and she did not have any bump on hear from the poll down.
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Offline aj

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Re: TH and phenotype
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2008, 08:32:51 AM »
Are these real? I think the hair deal is for sure. Are the "bumps" reason to call a th calf a knot head? I think so. The shorthorn breed is on a slippery slope not to mention a bumpy road if the th deal is not controlled. ;)
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Offline red

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Re: TH and phenotype
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2008, 08:36:15 AM »
is that the same as the swirl of hair? It's supposed to show temperment.

Red
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Offline CAB

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Re: TH and phenotype
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2008, 11:16:38 AM »
OK ITK, I'm like Knabe, we pics please, I spent time staring @ my possible carrier's last evening and again this morning, does the head need to be clipped to see this TH bump,line, whatever? I couldn't tell anything by looking @ mine, but this Brian dude could have saved everyone alot of time & money by sharing his TH test earlier.

Offline itk

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Re: TH and phenotype
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2008, 12:40:21 PM »
I will see if I can't find some pics or maybe JIT can help explain it alittle better since he seems to know what I am talking about. Brain said he was 100% accurate using this method to determine TH status on calves last fall when they were getting ready for their sale. I'm sure it is easier to detect if the head is clipped. By the way this Brain dude's  ;D family bred Boardwalk & Monopoly and were the original owners of Red Riders Drive with Dean's. He is well respected in the shorthorn breed so he is not some quack coming out of left field, there seems to be some truth to this method.
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Offline CAB

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Re: TH and phenotype
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2008, 12:49:58 PM »
   No offence meant itk. I want to learn how to read the look. It may help alot of people. BTW, you didn't sell all of your cows, did you?

Offline aj

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Re: TH and phenotype
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2008, 01:48:50 PM »
There are TWO things that stick out to me. The fuller,rounder more plump head on the PHA carriers is also a factor. Whoops three things sticking out. Th carriers are hairy, straight legged, and more moderate framed. They can be attention getters in the ring and they are a real trophy. I guess th cattle will always have a place cause they are bodacious and really make the audience stand to attention. I would rather have the th test myself but this may be a cheaper method
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

 

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