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Offline mark tenenbaum

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THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
« on: November 10, 2010, 09:22:11 PM »
JOHNNY HOOK HOOKS SIMMENTAL DISCOVERED DIVIDEND AND THE IRISH CATTLE BY HAPPENSTANCE- THE REST IS HISTORY The state of Kansas has INEVITABLY collected some pretty eclectic designations. Arguably-one of the most important "backwoods" cattle discoverys of the 20th century would have been when JONNY HOOK-a simmital (in 1971) breeder from Kansas stumbled across Deerpark Leader the 13 as a calf in Ireland. I took him from the Iowa state fair to Kansas one time back around 1992-and he told me the story stumbling across these incredible Shorthorns in Ireland, getting hooked(no pun intended) with Beef Genetics Research in Kansas-and History was made. I saw early pics of Dividend -and Improver on display at the WO sale where-with Mrs WO-standing behind them in 1972+-They were thicker and squarer butted-than alot of(non-maine-clubby) cattle even  today-there again-the Us shorthorns had been plagued by the dual-Ayatollah type genetics.I Pmd Oakleaf-ABOUT MY TRIP TO iRELAND IN 1990-etc-AND i HIT EM ALL-INCLUDING QUANES. The thing that most impressed me was Hook talking about what a cool-good sport Dividend was-just a doll-and everybody loved him. ((% of the Irish cattle I have encountered would rival the EXT Angus-in thier"GOOD NATURE".Almost every animal that went back to-or was sired by Dividend-was a teddy bear like him. DIVIDEND DOESNT BLOOD TYPE_But Hes still one of the best bulls of any breed that ever lived. O0
« Last Edit: August 31, 2022, 10:33:52 PM by mark tenenbaum »

Offline yuppiecowboy

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Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2010, 06:54:15 PM »
The story as I have been told was that Harris Simons, executive secretary I believe, came back from Ireland around 1968 ish with stories of shorthorn cattle weaning in excess of 800 pounds. He was called a liar and essentially ran out of the breed.

Offline E6 Durhams

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Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2010, 07:28:50 PM »
So what breeding was the 13th bull in ur opinion. What was his "cross"? if u will

Offline knabe

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Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2010, 07:39:22 PM »
So what breeding was the 13th bull in ur opinion. What was his "cross"? if u will

ask tim ohlde.
"The generation that told us to question authority, has now become the Authority we cannot question!"

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2010, 08:58:23 PM »
So what breeding was the 13th bull in ur opinion. What was his "cross"? if u will

ask tim ohlde.///OR Jonny Hook-

Offline knabe

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Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2010, 10:26:56 PM »
DIVIDEND DOESNT BLOOD TYPE_But Hes still one of the best bulls of any breed that ever lived. O0

how could he type?  his gene pool wasn't in the typed population.

any idea what he typed to if not shorthorn?
"The generation that told us to question authority, has now become the Authority we cannot question!"

Offline E6 Durhams

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Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2010, 05:46:49 AM »
Wow I am just gettin more questions the answers so I will drop it. Never would have guessed Ohlde would know. Crazy stuff.

Offline aj

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Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2010, 07:46:20 AM »
Very interesting history and politics on all this stuff. I have heard that the allowing of the Maine Anjou into the Shorthorn book at 3 quarter level passed by one vote. At first the Irish cattle weren't accepted then they were. I always wondered if a breeds members ever voted on such a question?
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline knabe

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Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2010, 08:53:49 AM »
Wow I am just gettin more questions the answers so I will drop it. Never would have guessed Ohlde would know. Crazy stuff.

no need. keep asking.  the best things come from the scenario you mentioned where more questions come than answers.
"The generation that told us to question authority, has now become the Authority we cannot question!"

Offline oldhorn

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Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2010, 10:02:33 AM »
yuppie cowboy is right.  Harris simons, WHO was owner andeditor of the Shorthorn world first told of the tremendous weaning weights o Irish cattle .  while they looked shorthorn, he made no claim as to their purity.  Harris Had other pro bblems and i don't think the issue of his promotion of Irish cattle was thefactor that led to the demise of the shorthorn world .  Alan sears could probably tell you the whole story.

Offline mark tenenbaum

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Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2010, 12:36:42 PM »
DIVIDEND DOESNT BLOOD TYPE_But Hes still one of the best bulls of any breed that ever lived. O0

how could he type?  his gene pool wasn't in the typed population.////-I guess because he was still in use almost 30 years later O0

any idea what he typed to if not shorthorn?

Online Dale

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Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2010, 07:20:20 PM »
ASA had an agreement with Coates Herd Book (in Britain) that whatever cattle were accepted into Coates, automatically came into ASA herd book, so Irish came into the U.S. through a loophole without regard to their purity.  Was that in the early 70's?  Many of us were impressed by Dividend and Improver when they were on display in Louisville--there was a big debate about which was the better bull.

Offline aj

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Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2010, 06:34:25 AM »
I myself am not a "purity guy....non asterisk or whatever". I think predictability is more important. I think we could start a list of asterisk free bulls that most people know are impure.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline E6 Durhams

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Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2010, 08:08:20 AM »
How many cattle in the herdbook trace back to these Irish cattle? Where the bulls really that good to overlook the impurity? If he doesn't blood type, how in the wide world of sports does he still qualify shortie? What was the outside breed crossed? (I don't want to call Ohlde lol). Just curious. I find it crazy that they would be allowed when everyone knew they were not pure. I still can't believe Tim Ohlde was involoved with this deal.I picture him as the angus man still even tho he has shorties. I talked with Lee Johnson awhile back, he was talkin about all this, said it was a huge stink for awhile and he gave me a wink.. But didn't really explain it. I have a feeling no shorties are truly pure anymore. If there are lines out there that have remained pure, what are they? Where are they?

Offline GM

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Re: THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND THE IRISH CATTLE
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2010, 08:50:59 AM »
I often wondered what Dividend was.  You really didn't see that speckled red necked roan color pattern like his on too many shorthorns prior to dividend (at least that I've seen).  TPS Coronet Leader 21st didn't throw roans like Dividend or spots like WO Dividend when breed to red cows.  I believe the only other cattle in the UK that had a roan color pattern were the Irish Moiled (a naturally polled breed) and the English Longhorn (thick cattle nothing like texas longhorns).  I think it's common knowledge that Improver was at least a 1/4 galloway.  I always thought the irish cattle might be remnants of draft/working cattle.

Does anyone know who Quane was marketing too in Ireland?  Was he breeding to produce bulls for local commercial cattleman?  finished steers?  Was he following what his father, his fathers father, etc always did by raising these cattle?  I assume they weren't breeding for showing/recraetion like many US breeders. 

On the Irish Breed Society it says "The breed was used in the early part of the 20th Century, primarily as a dual purpose breed, but specialisation for beef and milk led to the beef breeders starting their own section of the herd book in 1958. Since that time the beef Shorthorns have been developed as a separate breed and in 1976 in an effort to improve the muscling in the breed, the Directors of the Beef Shorthorn Cattle Society sanctioned the use of Maine-Anjou blood into the breed. The herd book was then closed again to outside blood in 2001, except by introduction through Grading Register."  Not sure how soon before 1976 Maines were used.  They have an interesting set of bulls listed on the site.  I requested a copy of their sire summary and they sent one to me.  There are bulls w/ Deerpark, Ballyart, Highfield blood, and some pedigrees that might as well be written in greek.  There are also a lot of canadian bulls in their catalogue.  Here's the site: http://www.irishshorthorns.com/

Trevor, you mention "purebred" shorthorns.  These guys have been breeding for a long time and used to register under the name Frosty Acres.  The Frosty Acres genetics show up in a lot of west coast cattle that are being shown today actually (if you go back far enough).  You can tell by the site that these cattle are not pampered or selected for the show ring...aka beauty is in the eye of the beholder... http://albaughranch.com/our_cattle.html

 
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 09:04:01 AM by GM »

 

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