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Offline Telos

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It's Christmas Eve and wishing  everyone a Merry Christmas.

I have always wanted to ask this question to all you experienced cattle breeders and thought it would be an interesting discussion... Is it true that you don't get as much power or heterosis when you use a Continental sire; ie. Angus, Shorthorn, Hereford  on your more European based cows as opposed to your mostly European influenced sires on Continental based cows?

Genetically there should not be a difference since half of the genes comes from the sire and the other half comes from the dam.

From past experience I have been disappointed with the results when Angus sires were used on my powerful Maine cows. They have always seemed to lack the thickness even when extra stout Angus bulls were used.
Jack Jabara

Offline aj

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Re: Using Continental based sires vs. European based sires and vise versa
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2007, 09:25:31 AM »
It's been along time ago but the exotics are the "continental" europe cattle and the angus herfords and shorthorn cattle are labeled british breeds. I googled it to make sure. I don't know any thing about your question telos. I do know that chi semen came into the usa about 1970. I think It was Joe lewis who used the first exotic cross for a grand champ steer in denver around 1972. Then i think he used a shorthorn in about 1990 in denver-the first straight bred in a long time. Any was the exotic explosion was here. Chi's limis, maines,Charolais, on and on.
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Offline Telos

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Re: Using Continental based sires vs. European based sires and vise versa
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2007, 11:43:14 AM »

Oh AJ, I guess I'm getting too old. I meant British breeds. Sorry about that , but at least you get get what I'm trying to say. No? You did come through on my "cat and crow" post.  For that, I'm grateful.

My observation when British based bulls are used on "Continentals". They just never seem to get as much punch as the other way around.

... and about your home bred friend, Joe Lewis. What a character. I sure do miss him.
Jack Jabara

Offline aj

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Re: Using Continental based sires vs. European based sires and vise versa
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2007, 12:28:57 PM »
I know joe has a grandaughter in shorthorns and showsheep business. As to your question I don't know. I could never figure out why on say the angus bull traveler 23-4 bull sired calves that were always several days of going the full gestation length in the womb. It seemed to me the cow would determine the length of gestation of her calf by her own reproductive timeline. How on earth would a baby calf influence how long gestation is for itself. I guess this helps 23-4 on being easy calving cause the calf doesn't have the extra 5-10 days to grow before it's born. You may have something if your question is somehow similar in nature.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline aj

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Re: Using Continental based sires vs. European based sires and vise versa
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2007, 07:35:59 AM »
Then what about who made who? Didn't he have like 5 different crosses in him yet for what he does he was a very consistent bull. There are other crossed up clubby bulls that seem to be very consistent with type in offspring. What would make the maine bull on a angus cow stouter than a angus bull on a maine cow...unless the...I don't know.
People can't believe we have such a big moon for such a small town.

Offline ROAD WARRIOR

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Re: Using Continental based sires vs. European based sires and vise versa
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2007, 11:00:50 AM »
My experience when we ran commercial cows was as long as we kept a British based cow herd, we could maintain a maternal line that would raise big calves reguardless of what bull they were with. When we got over 25% continental blood in the cows the maternal traits suffered, but we were also using terminal cross bulls which no doubt had a serious effect on the maternal traits of the daughters.
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Offline DLD

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Re: Using Continental based sires vs. European based sires and vise versa
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2007, 03:31:04 PM »
I'm not really sure why it is either, but I know that we've used some really good Angus bulls, both A.I. and natural service on our crossed up cows, and they just won't make great show calves. We get a few that make pretty fair Angus steers for where they need to look really Angus, but that's about it. By the same token, though, the truly upper end show steer prospects are very rarely out of a mating that involves even one absolutely pure British bred parent. It just seems that in order to get the kind of power the show ring demands these days, they need a shot of exotic from both sides. Maybe that's just because the very best purebred females (Angus, Hereford or Shorthorn) don't get bred to other kinds of bulls, generally speaking. Twenty years ago some of the succesful club calf herds bought a set of replacement Angus females every year, and sold every crossbred heifer calf they raised, but twenty years ago the show ring wasn't hung up on the extremes of muscle and bone that they seem to be today.

Maybe it has something to do with not only the volume of muscle and bone but the fact that the kind of muscle and bone that wins these days has a different shape to it (maybe due to the width/shape of the structure underneath). Maybe we can only just change so much in a single generation?
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